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Author Topic:   Have we halted our own Evolution?
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 1 of 79 (296256)
03-17-2006 1:37 PM


(I'm almost certain that this has ben discussed here before but I cannot find evidence of it... apologies...)
Assuming that evolution in some form exists.
Is it now the case that humans have effectively Halted our evolutionary development?
On one level, medical advances now dictate that, for the most part, very few disabilities (evolutionary mutations) will result in premature death, or prohibit procreation and transmission of these "defective" genes.
For instance, I am asthmatic, I would not be here if it were not for the drugs I take or the hospital care I recieved as a child.
Now if I had been born maybe 100? 200? years ago, my chances of survival would have been slim, and then only if I had been born into a wealthy family.
On another level, in the pre-technology exitance of mankind, our environment, our surroundings determined the path of our evolution, our upright stance enabled us to eat from higher trees, or perhaps hunt more efficiently.
Now though, we are creating our surroundings, our environment is being designed/built to fit us. Ergonomics dictates that our world evolves so as best to suit us. not the other way around.
Does this mean that this is the end of our physical evolution? What does evolution hold in store for us? will it be mental evolution? spiritual evolution?
What next?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by U can call me Cookie, posted 03-19-2006 5:42 PM Heathen has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 79 (296266)
03-17-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-17-2006 1:37 PM


Is it now the case that humans have effectively Halted our evolutionary development?
Human beings choose mates completely randomly, unlike any other organism? That's news to me. Did you have some evidence for this assertion?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Heathen, posted 03-17-2006 2:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 3 of 79 (296270)
03-17-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-17-2006 1:37 PM


Previous Discussion
I'm going AFK in a moment, this is an interesting looking topic, but it seems to be something that should be in the Biological Evolution (though the last paragraph might mean you wish to take this in another direction). Either way, this doesn't seem like a coffee house topic, so I'm moving it to PNT for later consideration.
I did see one topic that covered this, Message 1 seems to have been set up similarly though probably sufficiently different and long ago to warrant another discussion if you want.

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This message is a reply to:
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AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 4 of 79 (296271)
03-17-2006 2:01 PM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 5 of 79 (296275)
03-17-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminModulous
03-17-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Previous Discussion
Ah yes... My error... meant to PNT this one.
thanks Adminmodulous

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 6 of 79 (296278)
03-17-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
03-17-2006 1:59 PM


I'm not sure I made such an assertion. (if i did it was unintentional)
I listed two ways in which I feel Human evolutionary devlopment has been halted, by our own technological development.
fell free to comment on/discuss these points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2006 1:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 7 of 79 (296279)
03-17-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminModulous
03-17-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Previous Discussion
Biological evolution or miscellaneous topics in creation/evolution would be fine I guess
EDIT: what does AFK mean?
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 03-17-2006 02:14 PM

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 8 of 79 (296286)
03-17-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Heathen
03-17-2006 2:12 PM


Re: Previous Discussion
AFK = away from keyboard

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 9 of 79 (296311)
03-17-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AdminAsgara
03-17-2006 2:16 PM


Re: Previous Discussion
Ah yes, unfortunately I'm NUOMGA (Not Up On My Geeky Acronyms)

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AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 10 of 79 (296313)
03-17-2006 3:16 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 79 (296329)
03-17-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Heathen
03-17-2006 2:09 PM


I'm not sure I made such an assertion. (if i did it was unintentional)
Well, then, you've answered your own question. Can we conclude that humans have halted their own evolutionary development? No, we cannot, because sexual selection is still very much in force in the human species.
My point, which I made in an oblique and possibly rude way, is that there's considerably more to evolution than fatal negative selection, the culling of the weak/diseased, etc. Sometimes that kind of selection is the first step. But the second step, in organisms that reproduce sexually, is finding someone to mate with you. We don't do that at random, so that's a selective - and evolutionary - influence.
I listed two ways in which I feel Human evolutionary devlopment has been halted, by our own technological development.
The other thing is this. If you believe that human progress has halted the march of disease, or put food in every mouth, or spared all the pain of loss and death, you're living in a fantasy world. Even in my nation - the most prosperous - one out of every 5 children doesn't get enough to eat, and thousands die of entirely preventable diseases.
Both natural and sexual selection are very much at work on our species. Reports of the demise of human evolution have been greatly exaggerated.

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Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 12 of 79 (296331)
03-17-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-17-2006 1:37 PM


In New Scientist last week they discussed this very issue. The conclusion seemed to me at least to suggest that there is still a great deal of change going on the in the human genome.
They cited the example of the appearance of the gene that allows adults to digest milk, which is apparently a pretty recent (as in the last 5000 years?) innovation. There are also other genes that have spread like wildfire and might have only been around for between 3000 and 500 years.

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Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 13 of 79 (296335)
03-17-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
03-17-2006 4:21 PM


crashfrog writes:
there's considerably more to evolution than fatal negative selection,
Understood.
perhaps I should have made my point more clearly.
so, to return to the intended topic...do you feel that medical advances and/ or technological manipulation of our surroundings have had/will have the effect of slowing (or even halting) some aspects of our evolution?
crashfrog writes:
If you believe that human progress has halted the march of disease, or put food in every mouth, or spared all the pain of loss and death, you're living in a fantasy world
that's not what I said. please don't kneejerk yourself into an extreme position.
here's what I said...
Creavolution writes:
On one level, medical advances now dictate that, for the most part, very few disabilities...
note.. "FOR THE MOST PART, VERY FEW" I did not for a second suggest all disease had been irradicated, or anything like that.
I put this topic out for discussion.. I do not particularly hold any strong viewpoint on this, I am just interested to hear what people think.
I have no interest in getting into an agressive pissing contest with you.
I can, however, see how or control of our surroundings, and the falling mortality rate could act to affect how we evolve.

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 14 of 79 (296337)
03-17-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tusko
03-17-2006 4:30 PM


They cited the example of the appearance of the gene that allows adults to digest milk
Interesting.. Is that natural selection, or on some base level are our genes (or our designer/controller?) reacting to increased lactic intake?
edited for grammar
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 03-17-2006 04:47 PM

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 15 of 79 (296374)
03-17-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-17-2006 1:37 PM


Creavolution writes:
Is it now the case that humans have effectively Halted our evolutionary development?
Not biologically possible. The only way to 'halt' evolution would be to make time stand still. That said, our own culture, science and technology have become important selective forces in our own evolutiona, so yes, we are influencing our own evolutionary trajectory, in many ways inadvertantly.
Creavolution writes:
On one level, medical advances now dictate that, for the most part, very few disabilities (evolutionary mutations) will result in premature death, or prohibit procreation and transmission of these "defective" genes.
This is true. The consequence is an increase in what geneticists would term the 'genetic load' of deleterious genes in our population.
Creavolution writes:
Now though, we are creating our surroundings, our environment is being designed/built to fit us.
Half true. We *intend* to make our immediate environment more amenable to our comfort and security, but these are short-term efforts with long-term costs that will eventually backfire on us. E.g. we burn fossil fuels to have warmth in winter, but we are accelerating global warming that will eventually have far more deleterious effects on us than the localized seasonal discomfort of cold winter weather.
Creavolution writes:
Does this mean that this is the end of our physical evolution?
Absolutely not. We may need to evolve resistance to a thousand different environmental pollutants to have a chance at survival even 100 years from now.
Creavolution writes:
What does evolution hold in store for us?
That's anyone's guess, but as you recognize, we are now important determinants of our own ecological fate, evolutionarily or otherwise. At the rate we are going, we may be lucky to avoid extinction as a species 200 years from now. The only chances for an ultimately positive outcome are (1) stabilizing the human population at ecologically sustainable levels, estimated at around 2 billion people (fat chance of that) and (2) reversing our imminent descent into environmental degradation and contamination for sake of immediate comfort and material wealth (not much chance of that either).
Creavolution writes:
What does evolution hold in store for us?
Sorry, it's pretty bleak. We won't have a chance to evolve much further physically in the scant few generations it will take for us to completely destroy this planet - unless you believe we will somehow develop technology for a self-sustainable existence on other planets. Good luck.

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