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Author | Topic: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How do you tell the difference between them?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What are the odds, Buz? Please show your math. What do you mean by "precisely" and "complete"? Please be specific.
quote: Why not? Please be specific. Please show your work.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hi Buz!
Even though I know that you will either 1) Ignore this message completely, or 2) reply but not give any specific, useful, substantive answers to my very specific questions, your poor logic needs to be addressed.
quote: ...then you must reject Genesis, too, because no one was there to know exactly. How many times do you have to have this explained to you, Buz? Why do you keep using the same refuted arguments and poor logic over and over again?
quote: Buzsaw, what would falsify your belief in the literal truth of the Bible? Nothing? I can list at least a dozen scenarios, if found to be true, that would falsify evolution for me. Who thinks they "know it all", the person who keeps believing no matter the evidence, or the person who will change their mind when new evidence comes in?
quote: 1) Please describe exactly what would constitute a transitional form for you, Buz. 2) Please explain why there should be billions of them, including an explanation of your understanding of how fossils form, how much of the Earth has been explored for fossils, and how rare fossilization is. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-10-2004 09:32 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But buzsaw, I thought that scientists and academics were all to be mistrusted because they were brainwashed?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How do you tell the difference between them? quote: Sorry, I don't understand the difference. You seem to know how to tell the differece, which is why I asked you. Why won't you tell me? I just want to learn.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What are the odds, Buz? Please show your math. quote: I'm sure they are great, buz, but I want to know just HOW great. That's why I want to see your math. C'mon, show me how you calculated the odds! I really wanna see!
What do you mean by "precisely" and "complete"? Please be specific. quote: I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I wanted to know how you meant those words in the context in which you used them: "...without an intelligent designer and creator to make it happen so precisely and so complete..." I already know what the dictionary definitions mean, I wasn't sure what you meant in this case, so I asked you to clarify. I'd really appreciate it. It looks like you forgot this bit, so here it is again!:
quote: Why not? Please be specific. quote: Buz, this is a public forum. I can reply to whom I wish, just as you can. I was interested in the answers you had to my questions. It is certainly on topic. I am interested to know upon what do you base your opinions?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hi Buz!
Even though I know that you will either 1) Ignore this message completely, or 2) reply but not give any specific, useful, substantive answers to my very specific questions, quote: Go ahead and make me look stupid, buz. It would serve me right, wouldn't it? Oh, and how can you call me a know it all when I do nothing but ask questions of you? I am a seeker of the truth, buz, and by asking you questions I hope to learn something.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hmm, what do you mean by "in the process of evolving"? Do you mean "changing"?
quote: I am sorry, but I am still unclear on what you mean when you use the word "complete" in this context, so I also don't understand what "more complete" means either. Do you mean that every organism on the planet is perfect and unchanging? That we have never seen new species?
quote: Again, I am not sure what you mean. First, what definition of "complex" are you using, and also what criteria are you using to tell if something is "precisely designed". What would be an imaginary example of something that isn't "precisely designed"? I am thinking, maybe, the blind spot in the human retina? Or maybe the crossover food and air pipes?
quote: I am still confused, sorry. Let me ask you this, though. What are vestigial structures?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'm terribly sorry, buz, but I am afraid that I just don't understand your answers enough to make any kind of real, substantive response. You gave a couple of vague responses, to which I replied with more requests for details, and also several suggestions of what I thought you might be talking about. Why didn't you respond to those requests for more detailed answers, and why didn't you discuss my suggestions of what the implications of your position were? What's wrong with me doing that? Isn't that what someone who isn't sure about anothers' point does?
quote: What you call "time consuming peripherals", I call "examining the logical implications of an argument", and "checking an opinion against the facts". Yes, buz, I understand fully that you do consider the detailed examination of the logical implications and factual basis of your "opinions" to be an activity that "bogs you down". I agree that you consider said examinations to be "peripheral" and "off topic side trips". The thing is, though, that unless you are willing to explore the logical implications and factual basis of your opinions, you are going to continue to make the same logical and factual errors over and over again. Again, let me ask you what is wrong with me asking you to flesh out the details of what you are claiming? If you don't have any more details, cannot answer any of my questions of clarification, or don't have anything at all further to say, then is the problem that I am asking the questions or is the problem that you don't have any answers to them?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
OK, we can start with these two terms which you used in the following sentence regarding what you seem to consider evidence of supernatural intervention or design in the universe
quote: "Precisely designed", and "Complex". Maybe you can provide a couple of examples of each? As I already asked, what criterion are you using to tell if some organism has been designed in a "precise" way, rather than in a non-guided, natural way? Also, what do you mean by "complex" as it refers to organisms? Do you mean DNA, number of genes, cell structure, the nervous system, reproduction, the Krebs cycle, etc? Do you mean to say that complexity can only come about with God's intervention?
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[quote]1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of individuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do.[quote]
Hmm, I am puzzled by your use of the phrase "to become complex" in regards to machines designed by humans.
There machines are designed to be complex from the get go, so they don't "become" complex at all.
quote: Each human brain originates from a single egg and a single sperm. We know from developmental Biology that each thing that happens in the growth and development of a human brain is not completely controlled by the person's DNA. In fact, there is nowhere near enough DNA and genes to regulate each and every connection in the human brain. The human brain starts off with vastly more connections than it needs, and maost of these connections die off during the process of development in a process that is curiously analogous to natural selection. Environmental influence strongly determines the vast majority of which kinds and how many brain connections remain. The point is, human brain development is a concrete example of complexity arising without ANY supernatural intervention. Are you saying that God is individually "wiring" each and every brain?
quote: But Buz, people have used the principles of Natural Selection to solve engineering problems that human engineers could not figure out. They use genetic algorhithms. Nature, as in Natural Selection, is smarter than people.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Buz, you remind me of a uneducated parent who makes up answers to questions they have no intention of thinking about or accurately answering for the purpose of shutting up their curious kid.
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hey, I was the good cop this time and you got to be the bad cop!
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nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Rot in a nursing home, jerk!
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