Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists

LOL! Not the god, Jehovah, nor the system that I read about in my Bible.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

that much we can agree on.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There is no purpose in evolving. Evolution simply means that naturally ocurring variations that improve reproductive success - directly or indirectly - tend to spread."Complete" does not mean "perfect". There is absolutely no problem with the idea that a "complete" creature might be changed in ways that would improve its reproductive success. I am amazed that anyone could suggest otherwise.Evolution can never be said to be complete for any living species. There is always room for small scale change and if the environment were to change in the right way even major changes are never completely out of the question.This message has been edited by PaulK, 11-18-2004 02:34 AM

OK, we can start with these two terms which you used in the following sentence regarding what you seem to consider evidence of supernatural intervention or design in the universe

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Nor do we observe anything that doesn't appear to have been precisely designed and complex.

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"Precisely designed", and "Complex".Maybe you can provide a couple of examples of each?As I already asked, what criterion are you using to tell if some organism has been designed in a "precise" way, rather than in a non-guided, natural way?Also, what do you mean by "complex" as it refers to organisms? Do you mean DNA, number of genes, cell structure, the nervous system, reproduction, the Krebs cycle, etc?Do you mean to say that complexity can only come about with God's intervention?

Start with? You mean there's more? Eeeuu! You get one. Then if that doesn't do it, maybe Ned will negotiate more for you.The one you get is actually a reminder of the one I've already cited someplace here in this thread. It is the human brain. I know other creatures have also complex brains, but I'm somewhat familiar with some stuff about our brains.1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of individuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do.2. By the same token, scientists observe the brain, it is discovered that some 100 billion neurons, served by around a trillion service agents function with great precision to operate the nervous systems of each of billions of people. Each neuron interacts with at least 10 other neurons in the process. I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch.3. The thread title is "Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists. It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories. PRECISELY! If all the kings wise men, with all their combined trillions of neuronic brains working together can't make a brain, imo, mindless Mr. Natual Selection and his cohort, dead headed Ms Radom Mutation never did it. And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Since this may now go on for a long, long time into the topic of complexity perhaps we should take it to one of the threads that was discussing that.How about:
Evolution of complexity/information

So the god who you believe to have caused Jesus to be born of a virgin and who you believe to have raised this Jesus from the dead, this god runs a purposelessly and pointlessly evolved universe? That also this god of yours has resigned himself to live forever with whatever purposelessly and pointlessly pops up?

Hi Ned. I don't think I should be obligated to be drawn into another thread which I have no time nor desire for by Schrafinator. This's why I said she should have simply responded to the simple and plain statements that I stated and move on. I think she actually gets some kind of a kick outa agravating me. She reminds me of an unruly kid who incessantly asks an adult questions for the purpose of annoyance.

[quote]1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of individuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do.[quote] Hmm, I am puzzled by your use of the phrase "to become complex" in regards to machines designed by humans.There machines are designed to be complex from the get go, so they don't "become" complex at all.

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2. By the same token, scientists observe the brain, it is discovered that some 100 billion neurons, served by around a trillion service agents function with great precision to operate the nervous systems of each of billions of people. Each neuron interacts with at least 10 other neurons in the process. I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch.

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3. The thread title is "Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists. It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories

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Each human brain originates from a single egg and a single sperm.We know from developmental Biology that each thing that happens in the growth and development of a human brain is not completely controlled by the person's DNA. In fact, there is nowhere near enough DNA and genes to regulate each and every connection in the human brain.The human brain starts off with vastly more connections than it needs, and maost of these connections die off during the process of development in a process that is curiously analogous to natural selection.Environmental influence strongly determines the vast majority of which kinds and how many brain connections remain.The point is, human brain development is a concrete example of complexity arising without ANY supernatural intervention.Are you saying that God is individually "wiring" each and every brain?

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And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it.

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But Buz, people have used the principles of Natural Selection to solve engineering problems that human engineers could not figure out.They use genetic algorhithms.Nature, as in Natural Selection, is smarter than people.

Buz, look around.The universe is wonderous, but it is also random and pointless. It's not a playtoy for some immature supernatural kiddie. It's a flower opening, the change of seasions, galaxies being born, and dying, life evolving. It is constant change, renewal.Frankly, that is far more wonderful than some childish play moving toy solders around in the sand. Resigned himself? Why he's enjoying ever second of it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So you want to bring up "complexity" as some sort of support for your point of view but when questioned about it you don't have time?Buz, this is a much more complex issue (pun intended) than you realize. Well, I guess you realize a bit since you're smart enough to run from it. If you don't want to defend it then we will just pretend you had nothing to say on it. That, I guess, means that a whole series of your posts are founded on sand and can be disregarded.You're not the first one to think they could bring this up and prove something with it. However, no one has managed to stick it out.

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I think she actually gets some kind of a kick outa agravating me. She reminds me of an unruly kid who incessantly asks an adult questions for the purpose of annoyance.

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Buz, you remind me of a uneducated parent who makes up answers to questions they have no intention of thinking about or accurately answering for the purpose of shutting up their curious kid.

We get it buz. Your position is really quite simple. Complexity implies design. That is, of course, the old and oft discredited argument from design. You also think that the designer is whichever god you happen to believe in.Please answer this very simple question... if complexity requires design, who or what designed god? Infantile, I know, but to the point.Conversely, if god does not require a creator, why does anything else?These very simple question show a glaring weakness in the design argument. It is internally inconsistent, first requiring that complex things be designed and then claiming that a very complex thing (a creator deity) can just exist while nothing else can.The general reply is a fallacious special pleading on god's behalf. Do you have any reply?

Uneducated is one word for ignorant. I guess this just is another example. Both of ignorance and Buz ducking yet again.

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Uneducated is one word for ignorant. I guess this just is another example. Both of ignorance and Buz ducking yet again.

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Hey, I was the good cop this time and you got to be the bad cop!