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Author Topic:   How did Monkeys get to South America?
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 76 of 137 (499258)
02-17-2009 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dr Adequate
02-17-2009 12:05 AM


quote:
I do. But a raft of vegetation more than a mile in extent is not going to be without sources of water unpolluted by salt.

I don't think it will stay afloat very long unless it's all dried out like drift wood. What's going to hold the raft together when the sea storms bring rain and the rough water that comes with it?

Green wood sinks rather easily too. In my experience freshly cut green trees make good cover on the bottom for fresh water fishing.

Even very dry wood gets waterlogged and sinks to the bottom. I've banged up a few boat propellers on submerged timber sneaking beneath the surface.

Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-17-2009 12:05 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 10:00 PM Engineer has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 77 of 137 (499261)
02-17-2009 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Engineer
02-17-2009 9:41 PM


I can't resist
You seem to think just because you cannot conceive of something then it can not be true or could not have happened.
Trees and logs can float. Up here near the Great Lakes we know all about logs floating. If you walk the shores of Lake Superior you will see massive trees washed up.

Also, do you have an idea how they got the logs to the mills in the 19th and early 20th century. They floated them across Lake Superior.
http://www.mnhs.org/places/nationalregister/shipwrecks/niagara/nialr.html
Things float easier in salt water than they do in fresh.

Well what do you know. They still float log rafts in the Northwest.

So how about that for some real evidence instead of just making unsubstantiated assumptions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 9:41 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:06 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 78 of 137 (499263)
02-17-2009 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Theodoric
02-17-2009 9:24 PM


Re: again what is your alternative theory
quote:
You can bring up all the possible difficulties in the theory, but still you offer nothing as an alternative.

All you are doing is following in the steps of classic theistic "science"


I'm offering you a chance to be famous, and outlined the scientific method you can use to prove your point. Just go back a few posts.

quote:
-preferring supernatural explanations, even actively filtering out natural explanations or declaring them impossible
-willingness to import theistic ideas into science, placing more importance on revelation than empirical evidence

huh what?? me thinks you are in the wrong thread. We are trying to solve the rafting puzzle.

quote:
or the classic IDer

I think evolution is pretty intelligent design myself. If I was the big guy, I wouldn't want to micromanage everything.

quote:
-claim that issues are too complex to understand scientifically and resort to supernatural explanations

such as???

quote:
Your arguments are week and lazy. Just a version of the fallacy of negative proof.

I gave you the computer models already. The burden of proof is on you to prove that monkeys crossed on a raft, or have you stopped making that claim?

quote:
There is no conclusive proof that this is what happened so therefore it must not have.

We have seen your fallacies before from many IDers and YEC's. Present an alternate theory as to how monkeys got to the New World or move on.


gripe gripe gripe

quote:
Science knows the New World monkeys are genetically related to the Old World monkeys. The split occurred after continental drift. Therefore, they must have crossed the ocean. Floating on rafts of vegetation is a very plausible hypothesis.

The only trouble is that green wood sinks. Dried out wood with no water in it floats rather well for a short time, then it sinks.

quote:
Now it is up to you to present an alternate hypothesis, because the scientific hypothesis conforms to the facts and data.

The burden of proof is on he that claims a hypothesis. I have none, but you do so get busy.

quote:
I am done with this thread. You are a disingenuous IDer or YEC that can only present fallacies and debunked and discredited ID and YEC arguments.

aww come on dude. I asked how monkeys got across and you get all fussy. There are ways to prove it and I've already given you the tools myself. I spent about 3 hours on the research in post 74, and let's see your calculations now.

You can be rich and famous. You should be thanking me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 9:24 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 11:43 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 99 by bluegenes, posted 02-18-2009 11:20 AM Engineer has acknowledged this reply

  
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 79 of 137 (499264)
02-17-2009 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Theodoric
02-17-2009 10:00 PM


Re: I can't resist
quote:
Well what do you know. They still float log rafts in the Northwest.

So are you proposing the monkeys on the ss africa used chain saws to cut off the leaves and branches so the flotilla wouldn't sink? Or maybe they used roaps to hold their flaotilla together like the picture:

How far out does a flotilla go into the ocean before it dismembers or sinks?

Edited by Engineer, : picture added for reference


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 10:00 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 10:12 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 81 by lyx2no, posted 02-17-2009 10:24 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 80 of 137 (499266)
02-17-2009 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Engineer
02-17-2009 10:06 PM


Re: I can't resist
Only an idiot or someone trying to build a strawman would take that away from my post.

I won't lower myself to respond to the strawman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:06 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:47 PM Theodoric has responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2664 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 81 of 137 (499267)
02-17-2009 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Engineer
02-17-2009 10:06 PM


Floating Stones Gather Moss
You might want to look into pumice rafts and sudds. They can stay afloat intact for years.

AbE:Pumice raft

Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:06 PM Engineer has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Engineer
Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 82 of 137 (499269)
02-17-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Theodoric
02-17-2009 10:12 PM


Re: I can't resist
ok I'll give you one Theodore -- sorry for the hard time. Wood can float for quite a long time depending on the SG which can be as low as .5. Tree leaves, on the otherhand pose a different problem, and their bouyancy is unstable:

http://www2.hendrix.edu/biology/CellWeb/labmanual/Photosynthesis.html

When I was a kid I remember breaking off a rather large red oak limb while swinging out over a lake on a rope ( while I was still evolving through my tree climbing stage). Red oak is pretty dense, and it floated, but barely. It was in good daylight.

After a couple of hours I pushed it under water and it sank to the bottom. I think the leaves took in water, but can't prove it. It went from floater to sinker in about 2 hours. It was right at dusk.

I concluded that a tree with leaves is more likely to float during the day than during the night. Does that make sense?

A floatilla of debris is going to break apart in the kind of strong ocean currents that are needed for transporation, but that's my opinion.

Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.

Edited by Engineer, : added time of day information regrding photosynthesis.

Edited by Engineer, : dumb typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 10:12 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2009 11:16 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 87 by lyx2no, posted 02-17-2009 11:32 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 83 of 137 (499270)
02-17-2009 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by lyx2no
02-17-2009 10:24 PM


Re: I can't resist
Looks like you hit on a very viable and plausible answer.

From NASA

Biologists have also proposed pumice rafts as a way to explain how plants and animals spread from island to island in marine environments.

Also

Explosive volcanic eruptions may create pumice rafts, that can float on the ocean for months or even years before becoming fully saturated and sinking. The larger rafts often wind up having grasses and palm trees growing on them

Some were reportedly 30 kilometers wide.

There seems to be a book that is a bibliography on the subject. Can't find the text online but here it is.
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/01246.htm#order
It does have a chapter called "Floating Islands and the Dispersal of Animals"

So seems there have been studies on the subject. I will continue to look for more.

Engineer,
Maybe you should us "the google" before you discount things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by lyx2no, posted 02-17-2009 10:24 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

    
Meddle
Member
Posts: 165
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 84 of 137 (499271)
02-17-2009 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Engineer
02-17-2009 12:14 AM


The typical explanation says South America was closer 40 million years ago -- well how much closer?

As far as I can find out, the distance between Africa and South America during late-eocene/early-oligocene has been estimated as between 1000 km and 1750 km, with the distance today being 3200 km. As a comparison, the distance from the South American mainland to the Galapagos Islands is 970 km, which should give you some idea how close the continents were at this time.
Distances I got from this book on primate evolution, just click on 'preview this book' and scroll down to page 117. I think this may also have been where Dr Adequate got his illustrations from.

As for the potential for island hoping, the volcanic activity in the area could have given rise to suitable islands. For example I found the island of Trindade off the brazilian coast. It lies on the eastern end of a chain of submarine volcanoes which extend 1000 km from the continental shelf.

Also I am a bit confused on your position on this and Noah's Ark. You suggest in Message 20 that arguments by 'evolutionists' support the ark story yet you don't explain why. For example, why did the new world monkeys traipse over an entire continent and the modern Atlantic Oceans 3200 km when their old world relatives decided to stay put, especially considering the arguments you have brought up against rafting over a relatively more moderate distance? Do you accept genetic studies which suggest that old and new world monkeys split approximately 35 Mya, or do you think it is a result of this super-hypermutation on steroids thing? ;)

Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 12:14 AM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 85 of 137 (499272)
02-17-2009 11:02 PM


In summary, if a monkey made it across from africa to south america I think the real problem was finding drinking water. After a week or so, surely a large island of floating debris in ocean waves and swirling currents would of scattered apart. I'm going to look at how the igauna got from south america to Fiji.
Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-18-2009 9:53 AM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 86 of 137 (499273)
02-17-2009 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Engineer
02-17-2009 10:47 PM


Re: I can't resist
I don't think you can make that conclusion at all. A childhood experience is no substitute for verifiable evidence. Pine trees and other trees float quite well. Limbs on or not.

A floatilla of debris is going to break apart in the kind of strong ocean currents that are needed for transporation, but that's my opinion.

Yes that is all it is opinion. We are not discussing opinion here. We are discussing evidence. You discount all evidence presented to you and then you say in your opinion something can't be possible.

Here you present another fallacy in reasoning, I'm entitled to my opinion (what is this your fifth or sixth fallacy in just this thread alone)

You really should study up on logical fallacies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:47 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Engineer, posted 02-18-2009 7:19 AM Theodoric has responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2664 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 87 of 137 (499274)
02-17-2009 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Engineer
02-17-2009 10:47 PM


Red Oak Can't Resist
Red oak doesn't have tyloses in the vessels. Water flows through it like a straw. Bloop! Right to the bottom.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:47 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 88 of 137 (499276)
02-17-2009 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Engineer
02-17-2009 10:03 PM


Re: again what is your alternative theory
I gave you the computer models already. The burden of proof is on you to prove that monkeys crossed on a raft, or have you stopped making that claim?

The burden of proof is not on me. Your OP expressed that you did not believe that monkeys could have rafted across the ocean, even the people you quote in the OP agree that that was how it happened. The hypothesis has been presented to you many times. You are the one that disagrees with the hypothesis and presents logical fallacy after logical fallacy. If you do not agree with the hypothesis then show an alternative.

Again what is your hypothesis if you do not agree with the one given? I and no one else needs to show you how it was exactly done. It is feasible and it is plausible.

Ark? Aliens? From your OP

So how did the world's animals get back to their former environments from Ararat? They just rafted..... Wow that made it a lot simpler!

Yup it seems they sure did. BTW they didn't come from Ararat. You have been presented with the evidence. You have presented nothing but logical fallacies to discount the evidence. You been shown that your arguments hold little merit. Yes trees can float.
Still you expect more evidence. Again you are back to a logical fallacy of negative proof. The lack of conclusive proof does not mean it is not a valid hypothesis. Yes the burden of proof is now on you. You have been shown evidence supporting the hypothesis and refuse to consider it as plausible. Therefore, it is up to you to present an alternative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Engineer, posted 02-17-2009 10:03 PM Engineer has responded

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 Message 103 by Engineer, posted 02-18-2009 7:14 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 89 of 137 (499281)
02-18-2009 3:25 AM


An inland volcanic eruption would more than likely force a group of monkeys living on the coast, into the water. Provided they survived the magma shower, a bunch of floating volcanic material would seem an appetizing alternative, as compared to staying in the water or returning to land.


Always wanting to hear other peoples opinions about God and evolution. Email me.
Replies to this message:
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Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 90 of 137 (499283)
02-18-2009 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Darwinist
02-18-2009 3:25 AM


As to their water requirements, until vegetation sprouted, saltwater would taste just like normal water to a severely dehydrated monkey.


Always wanting to hear other peoples opinions about God and evolution. Email me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Darwinist, posted 02-18-2009 3:25 AM Darwinist has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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