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Author Topic:   The wonder of science vs. the banality of creation
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 1 of 64 (502615)
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


I think one of the things that puzzles me most about Creationist is how willing they are to accept that the incredible wonder of everything we see around us has such an utterly banal explaination.

On the one hand, we have the scientific version in which we're shown rock formations from three and a half billion years ago that demonstrate the existence of life. Three and a half billion years! Wow! What an amazing thing! We have amazing fossils such as Pikaia gracilens, Tiktaalik or Archaeopteryx; showing us key moments in evolution. The incredible structure and detail; the amazing ways we can learn about the world from these things.

On the other we have "God did it".

How can anyone be satisfied with that? How can anyone look at the incredible explanatory power of science, the amazing detail, the wondorous ways in which we can know and the startling finds that teach us about reality, and then shrug their shoulders and turn to chapter two?

I just don't get it.

(Miscellaneous topics, please)


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Message 2 of 64 (502747)
03-13-2009 7:00 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 3 of 64 (502752)
03-13-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


My Brain Hurts
I see beauty in complexity, in mathematics, in science, in music, in art. That painting in the Hirshhorn with one orange stripe over one black stripe? Please explain, evidently I'm clueless.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


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Sarawak
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-07-2009


Message 4 of 64 (502806)
03-13-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


Mr Jack:

I understand and I have always wondered if ID people, in their quest to gain acceptances when they say the Creator might be some alien from another planet and is not necessarily God (wink, wink), don't realize that they are denigrating God by equating him with some lesser being. When I've brought it up, it gets ignored.

If you truly believe in God, wouldn't He be just a little upset?

I have never been more excited than when I finally nailed down a definitive experiment. The only thing that excites me in church is Bach.

Edited by Sarawak, : No reason given.


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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 5 of 64 (502828)
03-13-2009 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sarawak
03-13-2009 1:00 PM


I understand and I have always wondered if ID people, in their quest to gain acceptances when they say the Creator might be some alien from another planet and is not necessarily God (wink, wink), don't realize that they are denigrating God by equating him with some lesser being. When I've brought it up, it gets ignored.

A topic that SHOULD be ignored. People get involved in discussions they feel are important. This isn't one of them.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10237
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 6 of 64 (502834)
03-13-2009 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Sky-Writing
03-13-2009 2:42 PM


Why?
Sarawak writes:

I understand and I have always wondered if ID people, in their quest to gain acceptances when they say the Creator might be some alien from another planet and is not necessarily God (wink, wink), don't realize that they are denigrating God by equating him with some lesser being. When I've brought it up, it gets ignored.

Sky writes:

A topic that SHOULD be ignored. People get involved in discussions they feel are important. This isn't one of them.

Why?

If there is indeed evidence of design then why is this hypothesis to be dismissed out of hand?

If the complexity and beauty that we see in nature could as much be the artistic expression of a higher alien species then why must this possibility be dismissed out of hand in favour of omnipotent, omniscient beings?


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Sarawak
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-07-2009


Message 7 of 64 (502835)
03-13-2009 3:24 PM


In their efforts to show that they are not trying to get God in the Science classroom, it is the IDers who bring up the alien-as-designer. They are the ones denigrating who they really think the designer is.
  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 305
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 8 of 64 (502858)
03-13-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


I couldn't agree any more wholeheartedly with you Mr. Jack. This universe full of wonders (especially the ones we may not even conceive of yet) should never be restricted by man-made follies like "God" or other foibles.
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Richard Townsend
Member (Idle past 2681 days)
Posts: 103
From: London, England
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 9 of 64 (502859)
03-13-2009 6:33 PM


I think to believe that a benevolent and all powerful God created everything and created us in his image must be pretty wonderful - unfortunately I can't believe it.

But I agree that the richness of science's explanation for the universe is greater (and just as weird) than all creation myths. And it's true! or true-ish anyway.


    
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 10 of 64 (503815)
03-22-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


Because
How can anyone look at the incredible explanatory power of science, the amazing detail, the wondrous ways in which we can know and the startling finds that teach us about reality, and then shrug their shoulders and turn to chapter two?

I'm not sure of whom you speak. Shall I compile a list of
the founders of science,
the greatest artists,
the greatest composers of music,
the best known architects of history?

Then you show us the shrug where they reject reality.


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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 11 of 64 (503818)
03-22-2009 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


....three and a half billion years ago...The incredible structure and detail; the amazing ways we can learn about the world from these things.

I'm sorry.
What do we learn, and more important, what does it matter?


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 12 of 64 (503819)
03-22-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Sky-Writing
03-22-2009 4:49 PM


What does it matter?
....three and a half billion years ago...The incredible structure and detail; the amazing ways we can learn about the world from these things.

I'm sorry.
What do we learn, and more important, what does it matter?


What does knowledge matter?

You realize that you can just sit there and pray for a new invention, to make our current computers look like 4-function calculators, don't you?

And how hard to you have to pray? Why, hard enough to produce the next generation of computers!

But while you're busy, scientists will just go ahead and do it, and engineers with make it real, and Apple or Dell will make it cheap. And then you can have one--all because of the knowledge brought to you by science.

Multiply this example by hundreds of thousands or millions. Start with stone tools and fire as early examples.

(See Tagline)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 13 of 64 (503822)
03-22-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
03-22-2009 5:10 PM


Re: What does it matter?
What does knowledge matter?You realize that you can just sit there and pray for a new invention, to make our current computers look like 4-function calculators, don't you?And how hard to you have to pray? Why, hard enough to produce the next generation of computers!
But while you're busy, scientists will just go ahead and do it, and engineers with make it real, and Apple or Dell will make it cheap. And then you can have one--all because of the knowledge brought to you by science.Multiply this example by hundreds of thousands or millions. Start with stone tools and fire as early examples.

Stone tools of the past worked better that steel tools of the present.
Fire followed the first rain storm.

Specifically, how does a science-fiction story about 3 Billion YO rock help? Unless you say that the first calculators were built by cave men from old rocks....then you'd have me cornered.


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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 14 of 64 (503829)
03-22-2009 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


On the other (hand) we have "God did it".

How can anyone be satisfied with that?

The founders of modern science were believers in God.
Muslim or Christian, it didn't cause them any harm
or interfere with their accomplishments.


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Replies to this message:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 15 of 64 (503831)
03-22-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
03-12-2009 2:49 PM


I think one of the things that puzzles me most about Creationist is how willing they are to accept that the incredible wonder of everything we see around us has such an utterly banal explanation.

What "we" see is a reality of energy held together by more energy in an absolutely infinite complex of immutable laws and rules that are unbreakable and can be relied upon no matter where we look or how far we travel. No law of nature evolves. Ever. That's the basis for Science. There are no side rules that allow for matter or intelligence to spring forth on it's own. Or for good design to come out of nothing.

If evolution is supposed to be a primary power or source of life, where are the indicators?
What law of nature even hints at that?
Where is the Foundation of Evolution?
On what Law of Science does it stand?


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