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Author Topic:   Big Bang - Big Dud
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 271 of 287 (284004)
02-04-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-04-2006 7:09 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
If out of absolute nothing came a universe that is brilliantly fine tune with the laws of physics and mathematics and all the rest of the fancy scientific wonderousies
I don't think the Big Bang proposes that the universe came from nothing. The theory doesn't really discuss where the universe came from, it only seeks to explain what the early universe was like (very hot and very dense).
Is the law of causiality not also a fact?
Some things seem to happen without causes. Radioactive decay is one of them. We can predict that 50% of something will decay in a given time, but there is no reason (no cause) why one atom decays over another.
I mean we dont worry about going home one day to find an elephant in our living room, and had just randomly managed to make itself, and I mean build up itself from absolutley nothing, make its bones,
Nor do we worry about all the molecules of oxygen gathering in one corner of the room.
So why do so many "scientists" (and interestingly enough the word science means knowledge) find it hard to "acknowledge" that if there is a singularity, then maybe it had a cause to be there, and since the law of causialty is factual, then maybe, just maybe, "In the beginning God said; Let there be light..."
Actually, when the Big Bang was first described there was a lot of fuss that it confirmed the universe had a 'beginning' which implied a creation event. A lot of scientists believe that God did create the universe at this point. I think Hawking has spoken with regards to this.
But even if some say that the big bang came from a vacum of fluctuating energies, then it really just brings it right back to the topic of how did they get there because you cant get something out of absolute nothingness. FACT!
Its not a fact, we don't know how extra-universe physics works and what laws apply there. In essense we cannot know where reality came from though, it could have been God that created reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-04-2006 7:09 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 277 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 287 (284171)
02-05-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Modulous
02-04-2006 7:34 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I dont know how to box up quotes the way you do so if you can explain how to do this, much appreciation.
Alot of scientists do actually believe that the universe came from nothing, I have been witness to this on many occasions, They actually think someone who believes otherwise is dim-witted, or of a lower class working mind,
Should'nt the theory of the big bang actually discuss how it got there, because that is the very foundation on which that particular theory lies upon. I mean the big bang theory has lots of other theories built upon it, who in turn have lots of theories built upon them.(thermodynamics, Eh!)
So the question of the origins of the big bang would seem to me to be of a matter of extreme importance to the scientific and none scientific world in general, would it not?
Physicist Steven Weinberg, (who won a nobel-prize for physics)said within the tiniest split second, the tempreture hit a hundred thousand million degrees Centigrade, and that the matter rushing apart consisted of such elementary particles as negativley charged electrones, positivley charged positrons and neutrinos,which lack both electrical charge and mass, and interestingly there were also photons: the universe he said was filled with light.
Then God said "...Let there be light..."
I thought there was a cause to radioactive decay, an unstable nuclei, but thanks to the law of entropy the decay produces another nucleus and so on and so forth until a stable one is formed. My belief is that it is more like a metamorphic nature within types of atoms, and anyway the fact that the atoms are there to begin with, with their own nature and doing their thing suggests to me that they do have a cause, because they are doing it.
In my opinion the law of causiality is a fact, and there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise.
My analogy of the elephant making itself out of nothing was just to illustrate the chances of something totally functional, and complex in design coming forth from "absolute nothingness" without cause, we know it wouldnt happen.
The same way we know ever oxygen molecule wouldnt gather in the corner of a room without there first being a cause for them to do that. Which just brings it right back to the Fundamental foundational question, how and why did the universe come into being out of absolute nothingness. Because without first understanding that the foundations of a building need to be in order, we cannot build it on with any safety
Which is exactly what the modern scientific world has done.
And that is also a fact.
As for extra universe and its physics, no one knows a thing about them, everyone is in the same boat, its all relative, hehe excuse the pun,
For that matter no one really knows a thing about the known universe, we know only three percent of the sky, and in that we know more about space than we do about our own oceans.
No, in my opinion man loves to look for new things, new ideas, new possibilities, theories built upon theories, whilst most are never proven either way, and the things we do know are of no real benefit to the universe, since most inventions, products and whatever else man has discovered is mostly doing nothing but exhausting the earth. Man himself in all his knowledge seeking wisdom has created nothing but a catastrophic mess of the universe, who knows what effects are happening to the universe becuase of our abuse of the earth, and its not too far fetched when you consider that we are already buggering up our weather patterns, our filthy living is the destruction of our planet, and its all be done in the name of Knowledge and mans continual search for more of it.
"...The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..." gen 2:8-9
"...Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ”You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ”You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings..." gen 3:1-7
Now does that not sound familiar?
Mans progress, more like regress!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2006 7:34 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2006 4:17 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied
 Message 274 by AdminNWR, posted 02-05-2006 4:20 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied
 Message 275 by Dubious Drewski, posted 02-20-2006 5:27 AM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 273 of 287 (284183)
02-05-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-05-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
Use the 'peek mode' to learn how to do the quotes. Its essentially 'qs' in square brackets.
Alot of scientists do actually believe that the universe came from nothing, I have been witness to this on many occasions, They actually think someone who believes otherwise is dim-witted, or of a lower class working mind,
Can you name a scientist that says the universe came from nothing?
Should'nt the theory of the big bang actually discuss how it got there, because that is the very foundation on which that particular theory lies upon. I mean the big bang theory has lots of other theories built upon it, who in turn have lots of theories built upon them.(thermodynamics, Eh!)
No it shouldn't. The big bang is just a description of the early universe. Its actually just a subset of Einstein's relativity, which attempts to explain the geometry of space time. Big bang is just that portion of space-time where time is quite small.
Thermodynamics isn't built from big bang - thermodynamics is a Victorian discipline which stemmed from engineering (heat engines and the like).
Physicist Steven Weinberg, (who won a nobel-prize for physics)said within the tiniest split second, the tempreture hit a hundred thousand million degrees Centigrade, and that the matter rushing apart consisted of such elementary particles as negativley charged electrones, positivley charged positrons and neutrinos,which lack both electrical charge and mass, and interestingly there were also photons: the universe he said was filled with light.
Then God said "...Let there be light..."
Indeed.
I thought there was a cause to radioactive decay, an unstable nuclei, but thanks to the law of entropy the decay produces another nucleus and so on and so forth until a stable one is formed.
But there is no cause for one to decay rather than another. If we had four atoms and 50% of them decay in 10 minutes. Would you be able to tell which atoms will have decayed? Would you be able to tell me why the two that did decay decayed and why the two that didn't didn't?
In my opinion the law of causiality is a fact, and there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise.
You should read into quantum physcics. Common sense rules like this get rewritten.
quote:
"Many people believe that everything in nature has to have a causal explanation. Although this may be true at the macroscopic level, it is not necessarily the case at the microscopic level, as quantum physics has demonstrated. Transitions, decays, and nuclear reactions do sometimes occur spontaneously without apparent cause. Similarly, the universe itself does not require a cause" (Crowe, 1995, Is quantum cosmology science? Skeptical Inquirer 19:53-54.)
My analogy of the elephant making itself out of nothing was just to illustrate the chances of something totally functional, and complex in design coming forth from "absolute nothingness" without cause, we know it wouldnt happen.
The same way we know ever oxygen molecule wouldnt gather in the corner of a room without there first being a cause for them to do that.
Yet in spite of of our common sense, both have a statistical probability of happening. Still, its easier to say that they probably won't happen, and we can agree there.
Which just brings it right back to the Fundamental foundational question, how and why did the universe come into being out of absolute nothingness. Because without first understanding that the foundations of a building need to be in order, we cannot build it on with any safety
Indeed, we cannot even know IF the universe came from nothing or not. All we can do is describe the early universe and speculate and hypothesise the rest.
Which is exactly what the modern scientific world has done.
And that is also a fact.
Not at all, the modern scientific world says that the early universe was very hot and dense. If it tries to do the maths to find out what was going on at t=0 we find the maths doing odd things (singularities and infinite densities and all that), the physics breaking down (relativity and quantum mechanics seem to be at odds etc).
So what does the science world do? It says "Sorry, we can describe the universe as early as Planck time (5.391 10’44 seconds), but not before. Before that time, if that makes sense, is currently undescribable...however here are some ideas, none of which we can be more sure of than another".
No, in my opinion man loves to look for new things, new ideas, new possibilities, theories built upon theories, whilst most are never proven either way, and the things we do know are of no real benefit to the universe, since most inventions, products and whatever else man has discovered is mostly doing nothing but exhausting the earth.
Theories, by their very nature, never get proved...only corroborated or falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 287 (284185)
02-05-2006 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-05-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I dont know how to box up quotes the way you do so if you can explain how to do this, much appreciation.
To achieve that effect, I used:
[qs]I dont know how to box up quotes the way you do so if you can explain how to do this, much appreciation.[/qs]
By the way "qs" stands for "quote shaded". That might help you remember the magic incantation.
You can click on the "peek" button to the bottom right of a message to see how somebody obtained particular effects.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied

  
Dubious Drewski
Member (Idle past 2521 days)
Posts: 73
From: Alberta
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 275 of 287 (288546)
02-20-2006 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat
02-05-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I mean the big bang theory has lots of other theories built upon it, who in turn have lots of theories built upon them.(thermodynamics, Eh!)
I've seen this sort of thing done before and I've never liked it - that is, trying to defeat your enemy by making it look like most of his knowledge is based on one, feable fact. Thermodynamics holds, regardless of the truth of the Big Bang theory.
Man himself in all his knowledge seeking wisdom has created nothing but a catastrophic mess of the universe
Hehe, you're giving us too much credit.
...done in the name of Knowledge and mans continual search for more of it.
Not true. The planet is not wrecked because we do research. It's wrecked because there's 6.5 billion of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fish-in-a-bowler-hat, posted 02-05-2006 3:39 PM Fish-in-a-bowler-hat has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 276 of 287 (288815)
02-20-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by cavediver
07-04-2005 7:07 AM


Re: it all came from nothing, eh?
To me, the Universe shouts God's glory, but it certainly doesn't prove His existence (by His choice I would contend).
It may not "prove" his existence, but it's not like God is trying to trick people into believing He does not exist with His creation either. "Prove" is ultimately a relevant term depending on who is having something "proven" to, but regardless, the universe is always and forever fully consistent and supporting of the idea of His existence.
On the first part of your post, I think you underestimate my openness to the idea that universe began from "nothing" if one counts information and energy without matter as nothing. I view matter as somewhat illusory in the sense of more having to do with intersecting energy patterns than something standing all on it's own.
In terms of a beginning, I view the beginning ultimately as a Person.

This message is a reply to:
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dinocandy
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 287 (295281)
03-14-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Modulous
02-04-2006 7:34 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I was excited to find this forum. I am not a scientist, just a mom with some curiousities. I was shocked to see how seemingly intelligent people insult eachother. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion. I will not dare to ask my questions, in fear of being attacked for my ignorance of science. I just wanted to say it was refreshing to read your comments. You seem very intelligent..and in my humble opinion, I have always thought that you are not a truly intelligent person, unless you know how to be kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2006 7:34 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by 1.61803, posted 03-14-2006 3:38 PM dinocandy has replied
 Message 279 by cavediver, posted 03-14-2006 4:27 PM dinocandy has replied
 Message 280 by AdminModulous, posted 03-14-2006 4:58 PM dinocandy has replied
 Message 286 by obvious Child, posted 08-18-2006 1:32 AM dinocandy has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 278 of 287 (295283)
03-14-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by dinocandy
03-14-2006 3:33 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
dinocandy writes:
I have always thought that you are not a truly intelligent person, unless you know how to be kind.
Ha, tell that to my Chemistry Professor. What a brilliant asshole she was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM dinocandy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 6:57 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 279 of 287 (295301)
03-14-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by dinocandy
03-14-2006 3:33 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I was excited to find this forum. I am not a scientist, just a mom with some curiousities. I was shocked to see how seemingly intelligent people insult eachother. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion. I will not dare to ask my questions, in fear of being attacked for my ignorance of science.
Hi Dinocandy Welcome to EvC, and in particular the Big Bang and Cosmology Forum.
Please, please, please do not be afraid of asking questions. There are no stupid questions, more-so in this field than any other of science. Cosmology and Fundemental Physics are some of the most talked about areas of science, yet are most definitely the least understood. There are a couple of cosmologists here (including myself) and numerous other hangers-on () always willing to help.
Enjoy your stay...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM dinocandy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 7:09 PM cavediver has not replied

  
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 280 of 287 (295308)
03-14-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by dinocandy
03-14-2006 3:33 PM


Welcome!
I was excited to find this forum. I am not a scientist, just a mom with some curiousities.
Hi there! Welcome to EvC! There are some links in my signature that might be of help in getting settled here. Here at EvC we welcome the curious with open arms
I am not a scientist, just a mom with some curiousities. I was shocked to see how seemingly intelligent people insult eachother. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion.
Let me assure you that asking questions is almost universally responded to positively. People do get frustrated, and tempers can flare during debate - but this is usually restricted to when a position is being debated rather than questions being asked
I just wanted to say it was refreshing to read your comments. You seem very intelligent..and in my humble opinion, I have always thought that you are not a truly intelligent person, unless you know how to be kind.
Thank you, that was very kind of you I agree, there are more virtues than intelligence, and you can have lots of one virtue but still be a horrible person to be near.
I posted this on my Admin alias so I could post the admin sig.
Take care, and please, ask your questions!

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM dinocandy has replied

Replies to this message:
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dinocandy
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 287 (295329)
03-14-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by 1.61803
03-14-2006 3:38 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
Thanks for the laugh!!

This message is a reply to:
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dinocandy
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 287 (295333)
03-14-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by AdminModulous
03-14-2006 4:58 PM


Re: Welcome!
Thanks so much for the reply you sent...I will definetly be asking some questions. (They will most likely be at an elementary school level.)I have to figure out how to use this site first!! Where do I go to learn how to post those quotes in the boxes?? Thanks, again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by AdminModulous, posted 03-14-2006 4:58 PM AdminModulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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dinocandy
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 287 (295334)
03-14-2006 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by cavediver
03-14-2006 4:27 PM


Re: Just some thoughts, Im no expert
I think I gave a reply to the wrong person, but I will assume you guys can figure it out...Thanks for taking the time to make me feel welcome!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by cavediver, posted 03-14-2006 4:27 PM cavediver has not replied

  
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 284 of 287 (295437)
03-15-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by dinocandy
03-14-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Welcome!
This guide should help you with the blue quotes and all the other codes used on the site. Also, when you make a post, to your left are some help links for dBCodes and HTML. And finally, there is a magic button at the bottom of posts that says "peek". If you click on that it will let you know how the person did all the things they did in their post.
In basic terms to make a quote box you type
[qs]This is my quote[/qs]
and it comes out as
This is my quote

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by dinocandy, posted 03-14-2006 7:07 PM dinocandy has not replied

  
xXGEARXx
Member (Idle past 5111 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 285 of 287 (340933)
08-17-2006 9:25 PM


Hello Peeps
This topic, as well as others, always brings out the best in people! lol..
Of course the universe could have been an explosion of some sort having a "beginning" of some kind. I could never understand why some people can not blend religion and science. Why can't it simply be that science explains what is the observable outcome of a greater consciousness of sorts. I do believe in an intelligent designer. I see all sorts of engineering on this planet alone. Don't any of you?
xXGEARXx

Replies to this message:
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