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Author Topic:   Cosmology 101
Force
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 79 (472265)
06-21-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by cavediver
06-21-2008 1:20 PM


Re: It's light.
cavediver,
I have seen pictures like those before. Are those pictures of our universe?
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2008 1:20 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2008 2:10 PM Force has replied
 Message 19 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2008 2:11 PM Force has not replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 79 (472266)
06-21-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Agobot
06-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Multiverse
agobot,
agobot writes:
The strentgh of the fundamental forces in the universe(force of gravity, speed of light, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, proton mass, etc.) is so finely tuned(to support life?), that the only good explanation for the existence of these finely tuned conditions besides god, would be a multiverse and multiple big bangs giving rise to multiple universes.
Not true. What if a God(higher being) is up there causing these things to happen in a way that allows life to be supported. LOL.

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 18 of 79 (472268)
06-21-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Force
06-21-2008 2:04 PM


Re: It's light.
Yes, they are. But not photographs of visible light - instead, they are of the the Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation. The horizontal band visible in all three images is the Milky Way Galaxy, unavoidably contaminating the picture of the rest of the Universe, as we're stuck within it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 2:04 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 4:04 PM cavediver has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 79 (472269)
06-21-2008 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Force
06-21-2008 2:04 PM


Re: It's light.
Yes, that is a real picture of our universe at higher frequency of electromagnetic radiation. It is what the universe looks like at such frequencies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 2:04 PM Force has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4040
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 20 of 79 (472270)
06-21-2008 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Agobot
06-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Multiverse
The strentgh of the fundamental forces in the universe(force of gravity, speed of light, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, proton mass, etc.) is so finely tuned(to support life?), that the only good explanation for the existence of these finely tuned conditions besides god, would be a multiverse and multiple big bangs giving rise to multiple universes.
I'm sorry, that's completely untrue.
There is no "fine tuning" for life. Such a premise requires that life be a "goal," and there is no evidence whatsoever of that being the case.
If the fundamental forces were "tuned" differently, the Unvierse as we know it would exist in a compeltely different form. Such a Universe may support some form of life, simply not one recognizeable to us.
It's also possible that the fundamental forces are constant in all universes, or that no other universes exist at all.
You seem to derive your argument from the idea that there is a "1:x chance" of the fundamental forces being "tuned" to life as we know it, and that this infinitely small chance requires either divine guidance or multiple iterations to generate the observed result.
Ask yourself this, then: in the lottery, a random number is drawn, and someone wins. Is it necessarily true that multiple drawings (universes) will be required before someone has a winning number (life-compatible fundamental forces)? Of course not - there are many instances of individuals winning on a single drawing, without the prize needing to be carried over to the next drawing. There is also no "intelligence" guiding this process, and no "goal."
Similarly, it is not necessarily true that multiple universes exist in order for our Universe to have fundamental forces compatible with life as we know it. It's possible in the speculative sense that other universes may exist, but there is insufficient data to make any real statements. Neither is a "divine creator" necessary - our Universe exists, and there is no evidence of any such "creator" having been involved. We have exactly one example of a Universe to study, and all we know is that this Universe has conditions compatible with our form of life. This may be the case in all Universes, may be uncommon or unique, or ours could be the only Unvierse that exists - we simply do not know, and so your statement is essentially a bare assertion drawn from your own speculation, not data.
You need to realize that the form of life we see is not necessarily the only possible form of life that can possibly exist, that life in some other form may be able to exist in a universe with different laws of physics from ours, and that life is not a "goal" of the Universe at all anyway - if conditions are favorable, life may arise. If they are not favorable, life will likely not arise. It just so happens that our Universe has properties that are at least somewhat favorable to our form of life. If our Universe had different properties, perhaps we would exist in a completely different form, or not at all - the Universe, being a non-intelligent entity, could quite literally not care less.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Force
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 79 (472271)
06-21-2008 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
06-20-2008 11:07 PM


Taz,
Taz writes:
Because everywhere we look things are accelerating away from us.
Red-shift and CMBR are also evidence of an explosion over an expansion.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

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Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5772 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 22 of 79 (472272)
06-21-2008 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Agobot
06-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Multiverse
"How peculiar", thought the puddle. "This hole I am in is perfectly shaped to hold me. Obviously it was specially designed for me and only me to fit inside of it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 1:57 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 2:51 PM Alasdair has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5552 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 23 of 79 (472273)
06-21-2008 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Alasdair
06-21-2008 2:26 PM


Re: Multiverse
Alasdair writes:
"How peculiar", thought the puddle. "This hole I am in is perfectly shaped to hold me. Obviously it was specially designed for me and only me to fit inside of it"
That's not even funny. What would you think if you saw a perfectly shaped pentagon puddle? How many puddles will it take till you get the perfect pentagon shape? If it's so easy to win the lottery, why is none of you a lottery winner yet?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Alasdair, posted 06-21-2008 2:26 PM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 2:56 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 25 by Alasdair, posted 06-21-2008 3:08 PM Agobot has not replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 79 (472275)
06-21-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Agobot
06-21-2008 2:51 PM


Re: Multiverse
Agobot,
Alasdair to Agobot writes:
"How peculiar", thought the puddle. "This hole I am in is perfectly shaped to hold me. Obviously it was specially designed for me and only me to fit inside of it"
Agobot to Alasdair writes:
That's not even funny. What would you think if you saw a perfectly shaped pentagon puddle?
I would think:
"how did this get here and is that water ment to be there"
Just because it is shaped like a pentagon does not mean that it has a purpose.
Agobot writes:
If it's so easy to win the lottery, why is none of you a lottery winner yet?
The point was that winning the lottery is a random phenomena but yet people still win.
Agobot writes:
How many puddles will it take till you get the perfect pentagon shape?
Your point is that it could not have evolved. How is that relevant? What if I am playing baseball, and the pitcher pitched the ball, and I hit the ball with the bat, and it just happens to go directly through a pentagon. Would that have a purpose? Better yet. If you look at alasdair last post it was at the exact same time and date I posted. Is there a purpose for that? That is very random....
Edited by Force, : edit - off topic wups..
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : not really off topic.. nevermind...sorry...
Edited by Force, : No reason given.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : EDIT
Edited by Force, : EDIT
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 2:51 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 5:26 PM Force has replied

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5772 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 25 of 79 (472277)
06-21-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Agobot
06-21-2008 2:51 PM


Re: Multiverse
I don't think you quite understood what I was saying, try again!

This message is a reply to:
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Force
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 79 (472284)
06-21-2008 3:52 PM


Inflation
Greetings,
So what is out there that supports cosmic inflation? I realize we have cosmic red-shift but is there anything else? Also, why cosmic inflation over bulk explosion?
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 79 (472285)
06-21-2008 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by cavediver
06-21-2008 2:10 PM


Re: It's light.
Cavediver,
the milkyway galaxy is our galaxy.
Milky Way - Wikipedia
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit - i just wanted to state that for the thread... LOL ...

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2008 2:10 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5552 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 28 of 79 (472305)
06-21-2008 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Force
06-21-2008 2:56 PM


Re: Multiverse
Agobot writes:
That's not even funny. What would you think if you saw a perfectly shaped pentagon puddle? How many puddles will it take till you get the perfect pentagon shape? If it's so easy to win the lottery, why is none of you a lottery winner yet?
Force writes:
Your point is that it could not have evolved. How is that relevant? What if I am playing baseball, and the pitcher pitched the ball, and I hit the ball with the bat, and it just happens to go directly through a pentagon. Would that have a purpose? Better yet. If you look at alasdair last post it was at the exact same time and date I posted. Is there a purpose for that? That is very random....
Where did I say anything about evolving? Where did I say anything about a purpose? What are you talking about?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 2:56 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:28 PM Agobot has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 79 (472306)
06-21-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Agobot
06-21-2008 5:26 PM


Re: Multiverse
agobot,
agobot writes:
How many puddles will it take till you get the perfect pentagon shape?
http://EvC Forum: Cosmology 101 -->EvC Forum: Cosmology 101
What was the point?
Edited by Force, : No reason given.

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 5:26 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Agobot, posted 06-21-2008 5:38 PM Force has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5552 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 30 of 79 (472310)
06-21-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Force
06-21-2008 5:28 PM


Re: Multiverse
Agobot writes:
How many puddles will it take till you get the perfect pentagon shape?
Force writes:
http://EvC Forum: Cosmology 101 -->EvC Forum: Cosmology 101
What was the point?
If you are looking for a naturally occuring pentagon shaped puddle, how many "regular" puddles is it going to take till you can find 1 that's pentagon shaped? The point is(as was conveyed in my earlier posts) that the odds for all the fundametal forces to be just right to support life as we know it... are well... 10^55?.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:28 PM Force has not replied

Replies to this message:
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