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Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: CERN - Large Hadron Collider and the Very Early Universe | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
One of the technological mavels of our time is about to be unleashed.
Cern | Science | The Guardian What do we hope to learn from the LHC? What predictions borne from current scientific models might be verified or refuted?Will the LHC experiments tell us anything new with regard to the very early universe, string theory, branes and the actual origin of the universe? In relation to the EvC debate specifically - Can the findings of the LHC do anything that will provide further positive evidence for the BBT and current cosmological models? Do creationists have any opinions regarding any scientifically predicted results of the LHC experiments?Will creationists accept verified predictions as lending any weight to current theories? Will refuted predictions take anything away from current theories? Do creationists have any predictions regarding what we should expect to find as a result of the LHC experiments if the 'designer hypothesis' is true? Given that most of the regular creationist contingent are currently banned from the BB&C forum I would prefer that this be put somewhere where they are actually able to participate. However I leave it to moderators to ultimately make that decision. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Admin Director Posts: 13036 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
You can choose between [forum=-2] and [forum=-15].
Creationists currently restricted from the [forum=-2] forum:
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I guess we can live without ICANT if it means that there is some moderation of the topic.
Never heard of Kendemyer and there are not as many restricted users as I had thought. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Admin Director Posts: 13036 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Straggler
Here's a lecture from one of the physicist working for CERN at the LHC. Its a pretty detailed lecture about the LHC, how it works and what they hope to discover. Enjoy,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cdbnwaW34g
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
What do we hope to learn from the LHC?
A few things. The first and foremost is "What broke electroweak symmetry?" That is, what is the explicit mechanism where by our world settled into a state where the electroweak force appears as two separate forces. The most commonly used mechanism in our theories is the Higgs field, which basically provides a background against which the electromagnet force and the weak force appear separate. This is similar to how the presence of an atmosphere on earth can make momentum appear not to be conserved. However there are several other supposed mechanisms and the LHC will test them as well. Unfortunately the LHC has been misreported as a machine built to find the Higgs Boson, but that is not its aim. Finding the Higgs boson would mean that the simplest mechanism of electroweak symmetry breaking is the right one. However not finding it wouldn't be some kind of disaster. After that the next major thing would be detecting the presence of supersymmetry particles. Supersymmetry is basically the biggest symmetry a quantum field theory can have and its existence would imply new particles. After that it may be capable of telling us if there is extra dimensions or put limits on how large extra dimensions can be.
What predictions borne from current scientific models might be verified or refuted?
Several versions of supersymmetry, certain mechanisms of electroweak symmetry breaking and theories with large extra dimensions.
Will the LHC experiments tell us anything new with regard to the very early universe, string theory, branes and the actual origin of the universe?
The discovery of supersymmetry particles would indicate string theory is on the right track. As for the origin of the universe, the LHC may tell us what material makes up Dark Matter, which is important for cosmology and theories of the early universe.
Can the findings of the LHC do anything that will provide further positive evidence for the BBT and current cosmological models?
That wouldn't be its direct or expected contribution. Rather it will improve our understanding of particle theory, which may then be used to aid the study of cosmology.
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Percy Member Posts: 22494 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I've followed the progress in construction of the LHC with interest for a long while now, ever since the cancellation of the US supercollider project, and I will be following its activities with great interest. But...
I wonder if in the end this period in physics will turn out to be similar to just after the turn of the previous century when the answers to some very perplexing and puzzling problems arrived from a completely unexpected corner. There seem now to be so many different questions, and it would be very unsatisfying if in the end each had an independent answer. Maybe the brute force approach of the LHC will provide those satisfyingly unified and elegant answers, maybe the days when a thinker armed only with pencil and paper could provide the answers are long gone. Still, the answers may yet come from an unexpected source. --Percy
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
I wonder if in the end this period in physics will turn out to be similar to just after the turn of the previous century
The one major difference between the end of the last century and now is that our current theories are too general for the previous centuries problem solving methods to work. For instance, instead of being able to come up with just any theory there are several strong arguments that no matter what is actually going on, physics at low energies like ours can be described by a quantum field theory. One is constrained by the results of quantum theory and relativity to use quantum field theory. So regardless of what's behind the symmetry breaking, it'll almost certainly still be described by a quantum field theory. In Cosmology, the unanswered questions are more likely to be solved from some unexpected observation. However again we face a different dilemma compared with the previous centuries. In previous centuries existing models had catastrophic failures when applied to the problematic phenomena in question. However this time round we have several models which have no problem describing the phenomena, but no current way of choosing between them.
Maybe the brute force approach of the LHC will provide those satisfyingly unified and elegant answers
The only reason the LHC is so "powerful" is because you need that much energy to access the energy scale where electroweak symmetry breaking occurs. Unfortunately it's unlikely that you could discover anything about symmetry breaking unless you can access those energies.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
After that it may be capable of telling us if there is extra dimensions or put limits on how large extra dimensions can be. Could you explain how they'll be able to detect the extra dimentions? Edited by onifre, : spelling
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Could you explain how they'll be able to detect the extra dimentions? Surely you've played Half-Life?
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Deftil Member (Idle past 4482 days) Posts: 128 From: Virginia, USA Joined: |
Just as an update about the LHC, the latest start up date announced for it is September 10th.
CERN | LHC First Beam
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Surely you've played Half-Life?
I have not, and dont call me surely
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Deftil Member (Idle past 4482 days) Posts: 128 From: Virginia, USA Joined: |
Could you explain how they'll be able to detect the extra dimentions? I'm sure Son Goku is far more knowledgable on this topic that I am, but in case he/she isn't able to answer for a while, I figured I'd try to help answer your question. Basically, I believe by using the particle accelerator they are able to use extremely high energy to make the small particles, gravitons, which would have access to the additional dimensions. Then, after that, if they detect the energy from the gravitons has just disappeared, this may indicate that that they have escaped to extra dimensions. You may want to read this article, the search for extra dimensions for more info about detecting extra dimensions. The following bit from that article may help answer your question:
quote:
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Thanks Deftil, good article, very cool explanations. Im wondering how long before results start being verifiable, I would say its going to be years before true results can be confirmed.
"All great truths begin as blasphemies" "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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Deftil Member (Idle past 4482 days) Posts: 128 From: Virginia, USA Joined: |
Im wondering how long before results start being verifiable, I would say its going to be years before true results can be confirmed. I was just asking a particle physicist this type of question 2 days ago actually. From what I understand, it will probably be about a year before they even really understand what their detectors are showing. Around that point we can expect some findings, but nothing extremely profound. However, it's not at all unlikely that publicity hounds will be making premature and outrageous claims by that point. Detecting signs of the Higgs boson may likely not be until 2011-2012. That's about when the thorough and reasonable publications about the findings will probably surface. This may be when we find out about extra dimensions research, but I'm not entirely sure in regards to that specific topic. There's one more thing I think I should mention about extra dimensons btw. Many people seem to raise the objection that the idea of energy escaping into other dimensions violates the first law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy. This, from what I understand, doesn't have to be the case however. It would just mean that gravitational energy has access to more dimensions than other forms of energy. The energy would essentially be conserved, it would just be going somewhere we weren't previously aware of. The reason why we wouldn't have notice this effect of energy leakage into another dimensions before, in our normal experience, is because we don't have experience observing gravitons, which can only be made in the extremely high energy environment of a powerful particle accelerator.
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