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Author Topic:   The Big Bang Bamma
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 1 of 80 (256439)
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


I just want to ask a few questions about the BB directly to the members of EVC forums (which include me *Happy Face*).
1. The Big Bang occured before or after the existance of time?
2. Did space-time BEGIN to exist?
3. Can changing/dynamic activity occur outside of the fabric of space-time?
4. If space-time began to exist at some point, why?
5. If changing/dynamic activity can not occur outside of space-time, how did space-time come to exist in the midst of the absence of space-time.
6. What is inflation?
7. Since the fabric of space-time is expanding are my atoms stretching right now? Is my head getting bigger as I type along with everything in the universe? Or is the fabric expanding and leaving matter the way it is, and just creating more space?
8. If the fabric of space-time is expanding and matter is being stretched out with it, then how can there be room for any other fermions then the existing ones that took up all the space?
9. Can the spacial-fabric rip?
10. Because position can only exist in space time, can there be two spacetimes with no relative positions to each other, being in different realities of which we will never be able to reach?
Please put this in a debate catagory, as I intend to fewtiley attack the big bang theory after my questions are answered.
This message has been edited by Guidosoft, 11-03-2005 07:30 AM

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 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 11-03-2005 11:06 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 7 by Son Goku, posted 11-03-2005 12:34 PM Christian7 has replied

  
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Message 2 of 80 (256455)
11-03-2005 8:48 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 3 of 80 (256474)
11-03-2005 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


Be quick to listen and slow to speak
Guido writes:
Please put this in a debate catagory, as I intend to fewtiley(fervently? avidly?) attack the big bang theory after my questions are answered.
Guido, is the mission here to attack the BB theory? You have such great questions! Let people respond and don't be in such a hurry to preach at them! You sound like a sour old man who is set in his ways, for crying out loud!

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
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Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 4 of 80 (256477)
11-03-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


I'm not physicist, but let's get this rolling
1. The Big Bang occured before or after the existance of time?
We have no way of knowing at this time. Some say yes, some say no. Both string theory and quantum loop gravity imply not.
2. Did space-time BEGIN to exist?
Who knows?
3. Can changing/dynamic activity occur outside of the fabric of space-time?
Change as we understand is defined with respect to time, so not as we understand it.
4. If space-time began to exist at some point, why?
Who knows.
5. If changing/dynamic activity can not occur outside of space-time, how did space-time come to exist in the midst of the absence of space-time.
It is nonsensical to talk about space-time not existing "before" space-time since you're falling off the bottom of the time scale. If space-time has a beginning, then it exists at t=0, and there is no t<0 at.
6. What is inflation?
Inflation, as I understand it, is a period that occured during the very first fractions of a second of the big-bang during which the universe underwent an immensely swift expansion.
7. Since the fabric of space-time is expanding are my atoms stretching right now? Is my head getting bigger as I type along with everything in the universe? Or is the fabric expanding and leaving matter the way it is, and just creating more space?
No, no, yes.
8. If the fabric of space-time is expanding and matter is being stretched out with it, then how can there be room for any other fermions then the existing ones that took up all the space?
What fermions that took up all the space?
9. Can the spacial-fabric rip?
Dunno. It seems unlikely, it rather depends on whether the spacial-fabric is an actual thing. I believe the current favoured theories hold that it isn't, and thus cannot rip.
10. Because position can only exist in space time, can there be two spacetimes with no relative positions to each other, being in different realities of which we will never be able to reach?
We have no way of knowing at this time. Some scientists believe so.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 5 of 80 (256479)
11-03-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


Some great questions here I'll get to them as I find the time.
as I intend to fewtiley attack the big bang theory after my questions are answered
Hmmm, I'm glad you appreciate the futility. Not because the theory is unassailable, but because your level of understanding will be based on analogies, and rather stretched analogies at that. The target for your attack will thus be these analogies, and to be honest, I'd be surprised if you didn't find some holes...
Be back later...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 80 (256485)
11-03-2005 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


1. The Big Bang occured before or after the existance of time?
In the classical Big Bang scenario, time as we think of it, begins AT the Big Bang, i.e. t=0. BUT the way we think of it isn't particluarly relevent.
2. Did space-time BEGIN to exist?
Only in the way that the surface of the Earth "begins" at the South Pole: it's one way of putting it, but it's rather misleading.
3. Can changing/dynamic activity occur outside of the fabric of space-time?
Possibly but not necessarily Either way, it is irrelevent to the Big Bang scenario.
4. If space-time began to exist at some point, why?
Why does the earth begin at the South Pole? It doesn't. It's just one way of looking at it.
5. If changing/dynamic activity can not occur outside of space-time, how did space-time come to exist in the midst of the absence of space-time.
Because it did not come to exist. It exists, that's all there is to it. There is no "before" when it did not exist, and there is no "after" when it will not exist.
7. Since the fabric of space-time is expanding are my atoms stretching right now? Is my head getting bigger as I type along with everything in the universe? Or is the fabric expanding and leaving matter the way it is, and just creating more space?
Creating more space... a great way of putting it too. EM and the strong force are far too strong to be affected by the expansion (except in the big-rip hypothesis)
8.
See 7
9. Can the spacial-fabric rip?
Yes, and in quite a terrifying way!!!
10. Because position can only exist in space time, can there be two spacetimes with no relative positions to each other, being in different realities of which we will never be able to reach?
See 3.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 80 (256511)
11-03-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
11-03-2005 7:29 AM


The Big Bang occured before or after the existance of time?
Let's look at it this way.
Take a sphere:
This sphere has two coordinates:
"North-South" and "East-West".
However I could describe position on the sphere with any set of two coordinates.
"North-South" and "East-West" are just the most suitable or "the easiest".
The fact that you need to use two coordinates make a sphere a 2-manifold.
Spacetime is a 4-manifold, so we need four coordinates to describe position in it.
Sometimes the most suitable are "t", "up-down", "left-right" and "back-foward".
When we are measuring distance in a part of spacetime we use the following formula:
(total distance squared) =
- (distance in coordinate 1 squared)
+ (distance in coordinate 2 squared)
+ (distance in coordinate 3 squared)
+ (distance in coordinate 4 squared).
As you can see, the first coordinate has a minus sign in front of it.
The coordinate with the minus sign in front of it is what you will call time in that part of spacetime.
Most of the time the coordinate with the minus sign is "t".
So we will call lower values of "t" the past and larger values of "t" the future.
However sometimes another coordinate will get the minus sign, so for instance if "Up-Down" got the minus sign where you are, you would call "Up-Down" time.
So "down" would be your past and "up" would be your future.
In this way, what is time and what is the past and future depends on where you are.
An example of this is how you fall into a black hole.
You don't fall into the Black Hole because you are pulled in, but because the Black Hole warps local spacetime, so that the inside of the hole becomes your future.
So you "exist" into the hole, away from the hole becomes your past.
The Big Bang is just a point in spacetime.
This point didn't happen before time began, because time is just some direction in spacetime, and what that direction is depends on where in spacetime you are.
Did space-time BEGIN to exist?
In General Relativity "begin" means the furthest point into the past of an object.
However this only applies to objects in spacetime, words like "past" and "future" are only directions inside spacetime and mean nothing to it itself.
Can changing/dynamic activity occur outside of the fabric of space-time?
Possibly, but not in a "before-after" way if you get what I mean.
What is inflation?
Think of the Universe as the Earth.
Each Longtitude up from the south pole to the North pole is the Universe at a given time.
The South Pole is the Big Bang for Example and the North Pole is the Big Crunch.
Each Circle is the Universe at a different time.
The Universe at a given time (Each circle) gets bigger away from the South Pole.
To us this looks like Inflation because we crawl up each bit of longtitude and see the circle getting bigger.
In reality the Universe was always been this shape and is static.
The Circle seen here would be the Universe at its maximum size, half way between the Big Crunch and Big Bang.
As you can see, whether there is space outside the Earth or not doesn't matter when discussing this.
A similar case applies to the Universe.
(I know there doesn't necessarily have to be a Big Crunch, but this is just to make the Example simpler.)
9. Can the spacial-fabric rip?
Theories of Quantum Gravity and String Theory say "Yes".
However these haven't been verified so I'd just say maybe.
(Even though personally I'd say yes)
10. Because position can only exist in space time, can there be two spacetimes with no relative positions to each other, being in different realities of which we will never be able to reach?
Yes.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 8 of 80 (256532)
11-03-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Jack
11-03-2005 10:41 AM


It is nonsensical to talk about space-time not existing "before" space-time since you're falling off the bottom of the time scale. If space-time has a beginning, then it exists at t=0, and there is no t<0 at.
So the fabric of space time did not begin to exist when there was no space-time, yet space-time had a begining because you can go back and back and not go and further? Therefore there was no point before space-time began to exist correct? So there was never a time when space-time didn't exist?
Why does space-time exist?
What is it made of?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NosyNed, posted 11-03-2005 4:23 PM Christian7 has replied

  
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 9 of 80 (256533)
11-03-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Christian7
11-03-2005 4:14 PM


Really starting to understand
If you really want to learn anything about this you'll have to use another method.
To get a beginning, tiny view of it I suggest you read both of Brian Greene's books: "The Elegant Universe" and "The Fabric of the Cosmos".
(the former one the Pulizer prize a few years ago).
I know that the answer to your first question is "We don't know." I'm not sure that the second has an answer either. It may even not be a sensible question.
What you may not realize is that you are not asking questions about the big bang. You are asking the questions that currently are interesting to cosmology and physics. That is looking at the source of the conditions that caused the big bang. This is where "string theory" (other terms: M-theory, branes ) is working.

This message is a reply to:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 10 of 80 (256537)
11-03-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Son Goku
11-03-2005 12:34 PM


In General Relativity "begin" means the furthest point into the past of an object.
However this only applies to objects in spacetime, words like "past" and "future" are only directions inside spacetime and mean nothing to it itself.
Then how can space-time expand over time? Surley time exists outside of space-time is some form for this dynamic event to occur. Therefore, if dynamic events can occur to space-time itself, and not within space-time, being not within space-time's time, the space-time fabric could have had a point at which it did not exist.
Another question.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 11 of 80 (256539)
11-03-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
11-03-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Really starting to understand
I keep looking for info on the string theory but no matter how long a book or article I find, the only information I extract from it is:
- There are 11 dimensions of space, 3 macro-spacial, 7 curled up space, 1 of time.
- Everything is made of vibrating strands of energy called string, but this book doesn't really feel like explaining how the strings give the shits their properties.
And loads of other vauge crap, that is useless to me, because it won't go into detail.
Please give me a link where it will explain, what the F a specific vibration of string has to do with a photon rather than an electron.
BTW, I have that book: The elegant universe. I just don't know where it is right now. Should I look for it? I didn't really understand the last time I tried to read it, but I have a feeling that it will be easier for me to understand it now.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 12 of 80 (256540)
11-03-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Christian7
11-03-2005 4:26 PM


I'm no expert
Then how can space-time expand over time?
Do you not mean to say 'How can space expand over time?'
If we use the above analogy. The sphere is space-time. It doesn't expand, its just a sphere, remaining the same 'size'. If we start at South the 'circle' we reside at is 0 radius, as we begin to travel north the circle we reside at 'expands'.
I think that's what is being driven at, but I'm aware that a analogy failing can occur without my knowing it: I hope the experts will correct me if I'm wrong.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 80 (256541)
11-03-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Christian7
11-03-2005 4:31 PM


The Math
And loads of other vauge crap, that is useless to me, because it won't go into detail.
I've been a bit frustrated by that missing next step. However, I'm rather sure that it involves the actual math behind this. I know I don't want to work that hard at it and I'm guessing you won't either.
I think (emphasize *think* - we need cavediver and others to drop in here)that the "string" are objects in the mathematics and by adjusting one or more parameters (vibration modes) you get results consistent with the properties of individual types of particles. However, I don't have the math to understand that level of detail or derive the results myself.
String theory isn't *the* answer yet anyway. It's got some interesting mathematical behaviour but it hasn't been tested yet. Until experimentation catchs up to theory it is just interesting.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 80 (256543)
11-03-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Modulous
11-03-2005 4:37 PM


Re: I'm no expert
Do you not mean to say 'How can space expand over time?'
If we use the above analogy. The sphere is space-time. It doesn't expand, its just a sphere, remaining the same 'size'. If we start at South the 'circle' we reside at is 0 radius, as we begin to travel north the circle we reside at 'expands'.
I think that's what is being driven at, but I'm aware that a analogy failing can occur without my knowing it: I hope the experts will correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.
Space expands over time.
Spacetime is just static, it's just the shape it is.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 15 of 80 (256932)
11-04-2005 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Son Goku
11-03-2005 4:45 PM


Re: I'm no expert
Alright thanks for the info guys. I can't debate about it at the time, so just give me loads of links so I can learn, and let the topic be done. When I wish to debate this, I will make a new topic later on another day or month, which will not be interogative. I will be forcing my opinions, like we are suppost to do on this forum. LOL.

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