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Author Topic:   What's the Fabric of space made out of?
JJP
Junior Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 14
From: Northern Ireland
Joined: 08-28-2008


Message 241 of 284 (479548)
08-28-2008 9:22 AM


is that it? read a book?
when i was talking about why the air doesn't get sucked out of the world on a day to day basis i meant it clearly as a rhetorical question. i know what gravity is, you seriously think i'd enter a conversation without knowing my stuff?
it's imparetive when replying to me to remember that i'm looking for easiest less complicated answer because it's usually the best.
people awe at things like gravity and think, this thing must be so complicated because it suspends everything in excistance in some sort of celestial balance. it's imposible to master this unseen force, and even if you were to master it,,, what? are you gonna start punching holes in the fabric of the universe? madness. trying to find out the answer to something that isn't there has been the downfall of many platorians. and for those of you who don't know, thats my term for people who wondered like plato. we find out that the fabric of space isn't there, we can't believe it so we have to find another explanation.
look i'm just seeing all this in my head, this is what makes sense to me, thats why i have provided my email address, if anybody has anymore questions or wants to put me right then please by all means put me right.
Edited by JJP, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 08-28-2008 9:48 AM JJP has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 242 of 284 (479549)
08-28-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by JJP
08-28-2008 9:22 AM


Re: is that it? read a book?
Before you click on the "Gen Reply" button to reply to this message, just position your mouse over that button and let it hover there. A little hover box should appear. The text in the box says, "Please do not use this button unless making a general reply. Instead use the small reply button beneath each message."
Now move your mouse over the little reply button at the bottom of this message and click on that. There, much better. This allows both forward and backward links between messages and replies.
James24 writes:
look i'm just seeing all this in my head, this is what makes sense to me, thats why i have provided my email address, if anybody has anymore questions or wants to put me right then please by all means put me right.
I think Lyx2no suggested you read a book because your messages seemed to display a great deal of unawareness of science in general and modern cosmology in particular.
Concerning Lyx2no's one word answer of "gravity" and your clarification that the question was only rhetorical, either you don't know what rhetorical means or you don't know how to form a rhetorical question. What your question about why Earth's air isn't sucked off into space seemed to indicate is that you're not very familiar with science. If you read a book or two (hundreds of books is best) then you'll be better able to formulate questions that make sense.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 9:22 AM JJP has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 10:23 AM Percy has replied

  
JJP
Junior Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 14
From: Northern Ireland
Joined: 08-28-2008


Message 243 of 284 (479553)
08-28-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Percy
08-28-2008 9:48 AM


Re: is that it? read a book?
come on, i do have a little idea of science, i'm on here trying to find answer too. the basis of this question is what is the fabric of space made from, my reply was my own speculation. so i haven't read as many books as you, is that not why the internet was created? vast knowledge without having to spend as much time as those before who read the books. answers at your fingertips.
and how good are you at typing rhetorical questions? of course i know what a rhetorical question is but we are not her to debate or learn about that, in which case i will ask, what about my other 2 replies have you shed light on the subject that i am looking to learn about without critical debation on what way my replies are typed?
you see people on here giving their own opinions and like i said, i'm just saying what i percieve in my mind. and why would my speculations on the subject "not" be correct? have you ever been to space? have you experienced this invisable force?
can you say, "james this is what gravity is made out of or that it isn't made out of anything" because if you can do that then you can answer this subject in which case NASA research labs should give you the highest paid job going.
like i said, i am trying to learn as well, and you don't learn anything unless you speculate, i was speculating what i know, it's up to some one smarter than me to educate me, not critacise me for looking to find out the answer quicker than reading a book.
Hence my new generated reply title, "is that it? read a book?"
Edited by JJP, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 08-28-2008 9:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Percy, posted 08-28-2008 11:30 AM JJP has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 244 of 284 (479574)
08-28-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by JJP
08-28-2008 10:23 AM


Re: is that it? read a book?
Speculation in the absence of information leads to nonsense. If you're asking, "What is gravity?" then there are several people here who could probably give you good answers about the state of current research and what we think are some of the likely answers. They'll probably notice that this thread is active again within a day or two.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 10:23 AM JJP has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 245 of 284 (479591)
08-28-2008 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by JJP
08-28-2008 12:25 AM


Re: Space Fabric
I first want to thank you for reopening this thread. I'd not seen it before now. It's a good thread.
It's a funny old thing isn't it?
As elliptical as it is, I recognized this bit as rhetorical, and; by consequence, didn't answer it. The rest is not rhetorical. It is a disassociated jumble that is very hard to respond to because it calls for bits and pieces rather then a smooth narrative.
In a later post you state that
it's up to some one smarter than me to educate me, not critacise me for looking to find out the answer quicker than reading a book.
Even were that true, do you not think you should at least do the work of making it easy for them? There is no royal road to knowledge.
Anyhow,
imagine this for a second,,, we say that space fabric is non excistant but oly to obey the 4th demention of space, when you thnk of it this way, who has ever proved that space doesn't excist?
Space exists ” no one of note is claiming that space doesn't exist. The "fabric" is a metaphor, not non-existent. The "fabric" stretches and bends in response to matter and energy. This can be observed and measured. "What is the fabric of space made of?", may not even be a legitimate question; but, some kind of known "stuff" is clearly not the answer.
If one opens a capsule of air anywhere the contents dissipate. In a vacuum this is faster because there is nothing occupying the space into which it dissipates.
why does this not happen to the earh on a day to day besis then?
It does, but it is counterbalanced by the return of those "air bits" being almost as quickly pulled back by Earth's gravity. Some does escape; a la, Mars .
surely if the space vacume is so vast and strong then you would think all the air would have been sucked out a long time ago, but it has't been.
Mars.
i'll tell you what,,, go up to space and open a capsule in the vacumous space then close it, the same vacume of space should be contained in this, then bring it back to earth and let it go, just like when you trap air in a ball under water,
Air is a substance. Vacuum is not a substance. There is no substance of a vacuum to hold together or to dissipate as there is with air. There is no reason to believe that the two would behave alike.
Vacuum and space are not synonyms. Space exists everywhere. Even inside matter. Vacuums exist in the absence of matter. You are not returning the space in your capsule, only the vacuum.
Anybody care to elaborate on that?
Only marginally.
Stop talking about light bending, you can bend light with mirrors, plus time travelling is impossible, why you ask?
[rhetoric]Remember what I said about disassociated jumble?[/rhetoric])
There is a significant difference between light following the shortest space-time path and light reflecting off a mirror. And refraction would have been a better example anyway.
but lets face it, what's heavier gravity?
I'm at a loss.
if you want to travel at the speed of light then good luck trying to piece your molecules back together .
You're traveling at the speed of light now. How are you molecules doing?
you seriously think i'd enter a conversation without knowing my stuff?
Some people ask "why?"; I ask "why not?"
it's imparetive when replying to me to remember that i'm looking for easiest less complicated answer because it's usually the best.
God did it.
are you gonna start punching holes in the fabric of the universe?
Only if it's wet.
and for those of you who don't know, thats my term for people who wondered like plato.
I did know that. I read it in a book about you.
and why would my speculations on the subject "not" be correct?
Because there are 3.786 ” 1084 ways to speculate and no one has that kind of luck.
. you don't learn anything unless you speculate .
One does not learn from the speculation. One learns by the examination of speculation compared with reality.
It wouldn't hurt if one of those books were a grammar.

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 12:25 AM JJP has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 1:30 PM lyx2no has replied
 Message 247 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2008 1:51 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
JJP
Junior Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 14
From: Northern Ireland
Joined: 08-28-2008


Message 246 of 284 (479595)
08-28-2008 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by lyx2no
08-28-2008 1:09 PM


Re: Space Fabric
educate not humiliate
thanx for the explanation of somethings but some other things in your message were designed to poke fun at me.
i wasn't trying to be smarmy to any one, why you all picking on me? i just wanted to have a go at it.
do you not remeber lookin up and wondering?
i just want to know, not be critacised for my knowledge. or lack of.
Edited by JJP, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by lyx2no, posted 08-28-2008 1:09 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by lyx2no, posted 08-28-2008 3:08 PM JJP has not replied
 Message 252 by cavediver, posted 08-29-2008 10:17 AM JJP has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 247 of 284 (479598)
08-28-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by lyx2no
08-28-2008 1:09 PM


Re: Space Fabric
and why would my speculations on the subject "not" be correct?
Because there are 3.786 ” 1084 ways to speculate and no one has that kind of luck.
Love it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by lyx2no, posted 08-28-2008 1:09 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 248 of 284 (479607)
08-28-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by JJP
08-28-2008 1:30 PM


Humiliate?
I would surely not wish to dissuade anyone form an honest attempt to learn, or even just wonder. And surely enough, better then half my message was designed to poke fun, but not so much at you as one would think. I fill my posts with obscure references to arguments I've had going all the way back to the second grade ” way inside jokes that I never explain, but I'm cracking up.
i just wanted to have a go at it.
I sincerely ask that you keep having a go at it. But wax your back first so this stuff will slide off. More's coming.
Are you very young (under 20ish) by any chance?*
See cavediver there? If you want to know you've got it made there, boy-o.
*I just looked at your profile and see that you are. I'll not promise to go more gentley, but I will be more fair and not hold you semi-responsible for the nit wit ideas of others. Now stay on topic, for Pete's sake.
Edited by lyx2no, : User error ID 10 T.

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 1:30 PM JJP has not replied

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5575 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 249 of 284 (479624)
08-28-2008 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by nipok
04-26-2005 2:51 AM


Congratulations.
Your post in my opinion is very accurate indeed, if you were to conjure any 'fabric' to space then it is energy [as EMR] the 'space between the stars [which are themselves energy in 'solid' form] is full of EMR. When you hear or read that space is 'bent' around a gravitational body such as a star so the light 'curves' in space, what they actually mean is that one form of energy [gravity] has acted upon another form of energy [light].
We often forget to include this fact when talking to those interested in learning more about Relativity and the result is the shocking idea is formed in many minds that there is some 'other' substance out there called 'space', there isn't, there is energy and it is constantly being swayed by other energy that forces into performing the things we see like light bending around a large star.
The same 'misconstruction' is made of time, as if it had some substance that might be subject to the influence of man, there is no 'reverse' for time because events unfold 'after' one another not 'before'.
Folding a sheet of paper a number of times shows a forward processional series of events, refolding the piece of paper no matter how carefully we re-trace our steps will still be a forward procession of events.
Time is entirely a 'one-way street' it is a measure of the gaps between events, it has no substance.
Space-time is a combination of those terms, it simply represents the procession of energy acting upon energy at various intervals relative to your point in space.
For the most part that view is from here on Earth and we are sitting on small planet with just enough gravity to keep us in place without crushing us and through a thin veil of atmosphere that sustains us, our 'advantage' is that thanks to that huge soft boiled cauliflower in that hard shell on your shoulders we can 'step' outside our safe haven and take a bigger view, Einstein is the most famous of our kind that did this within the mind and Neil Armstrong is the most famous of the very few that have had the best 'long view' to date in person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by nipok, posted 04-26-2005 2:51 AM nipok has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2008 9:58 AM V-Bird has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 284 (479667)
08-29-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by V-Bird
08-28-2008 7:49 PM


Re: Congratulations.
V-Bird writes:
Your post in my opinion is very accurate indeed, if you were to conjure any 'fabric' to space then it is energy [as EMR] the 'space between the stars [which are themselves energy in 'solid' form] is full of EMR. When you hear or read that space is 'bent' around a gravitational body such as a star so the light 'curves' in space, what they actually mean is that one form of energy [gravity] has acted upon another form of energy [light].
We often forget to include this fact when talking to those interested in learning more about Relativity and the result is the shocking idea is formed in many minds that there is some 'other' substance out there called 'space', there isn't, there is energy and it is constantly being swayed by other energy that forces into performing the things we see like light bending around a large star.
As I understand your statement you are alleging that the only property of space is energy as electromagnetic waves.
Question: Where does this energy, i.e. electromagnetism exist?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by V-Bird, posted 08-28-2008 7:49 PM V-Bird has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by cavediver, posted 08-29-2008 10:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 254 by V-Bird, posted 08-31-2008 6:50 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 251 of 284 (479670)
08-29-2008 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
08-29-2008 9:58 AM


A meeting of minds...
Hey Buz, meet V-Bird.
Hey V-Bird, meet Buz.
[CD quietly retreats to the phreas]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2008 9:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 252 of 284 (479671)
08-29-2008 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by JJP
08-28-2008 1:30 PM


Re: Space Fabric
educate not humiliate
Great advice - but I would caution you not to open yourself up to humiliation. To become educated, you need to express a willingness to learn. Shouting off rash opinions in a subject as complex as space-time physics will not gain you many potential educators. Ask questions. Lots of questions. And listen to the answers. Don't try and argue the subject - you don't know anywhere near enough yet to argue. If you don't understand, or if it sounds wrong, ask more questions. If your 'educator' is any good, he will keep explaining and explaining (time permitting) and you will start to learn.
I would have suffered a great deal less humiliation if I had followed the above advice on my own journey to becoming a cosmologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by JJP, posted 08-28-2008 1:30 PM JJP has not replied

  
Fabric
Member (Idle past 5662 days)
Posts: 41
From: London, England
Joined: 02-27-2005


Message 253 of 284 (479778)
08-30-2008 10:42 AM


Mate if you really want to learn about space and the universe then you want to think of questions then google them and read stuff on-line, like myself
Self educate yourself rather than coming on here all the time because it is easyer and faster to gain knowledge imo, sure come on here and ask the odd question when stuck but if you truely want to learn and are an inquisitive person then theres so much information about these subjects on-line.
Wikipedia for example is great for layman's like me & you, link after link you can learn and also be fascinated by so much.
I hav'nt even read your OP but it seems you need to learn a lot more before starting a debate with these people as a lot of them are way ahead of you and you will get more educated by reading not arguing.
Just wait until you start reading about quantum fields and the atomic world, that should really get you interested and every answer has another question in my experience.
The universe is a truly amazing place & also very complex when you get to the fundamental questions of gravitation and what is it all made of ect...
I am just trying to be helpful here as i read lots of stuff on-line because i am also interested in the big questions, im 27 and shit at maths but the theory's and the complexity of the cosmos amazes me, especially particle physics.
Kev.
Edited by Fabric, : A couple grammar mistakes, DOH!

Myspace!

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 5575 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 254 of 284 (479943)
08-31-2008 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
08-29-2008 9:58 AM


Re: Congratulations.
I see the Cosmos as just energy, all of it.
The bits we see as objects are just energy 'stored' in the form of mass, somethings we see are just one aspect of energy making or forcing another aspect of energy move under its influence, the areas we see as 'empty' space is full of another aspect of energy conveying what all those other aspects of energy are doing.
This is the fundamentally correct way to view the Cosmos.
The only exception to all this is gravitation [not gravity] gravitation is not bound by the upper limit of the speed of light.
When we stop blinkering ourselves and look for the 'gravity particle' at above the speed of light we will find it, but at the moment we can't even see the obvious clues to its existence in things like the Casimir 'parallel plate' Effect, the 'haze' of the proton circling the nucleus of an atom, the two slit phenomenon and Einsteins 'spooky action at a distance' all are fundamental examples of an FTL particles presence in the Cosmos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2008 9:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by cavediver, posted 08-31-2008 7:02 AM V-Bird has replied
 Message 264 by onifre, posted 08-31-2008 7:57 PM V-Bird has replied
 Message 265 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2008 10:28 PM V-Bird has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 255 of 284 (479948)
08-31-2008 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by V-Bird
08-31-2008 6:50 AM


Re: Congratulations.
I see the Cosmos as just energy, all of it.
So what is energy?
This is the fundamentally correct way to view the Cosmos.
Are you sure?
the 'haze' of the proton circling the nucleus of an atom
And the nucleus is made up of what?
Casimir 'parallel plate' Effect
Please explain the Casimir Effect to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by V-Bird, posted 08-31-2008 6:50 AM V-Bird has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by V-Bird, posted 08-31-2008 1:26 PM cavediver has replied

  
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