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Author Topic:   Did the expansion rate of the universe exceed lightspeed?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 86 (458666)
03-01-2008 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
03-01-2008 1:41 PM


Hey, cavediver, here is a question from someone who is stuck in flat-space-time-special-relativity mode:
What does it even mean that two distant galaxies are separating at a speed greater than the speed of light? Does it really come out of GR that the relative "speed" (in the sense of the distance between them) can be greater than the speed of light?

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 03-01-2008 1:41 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 03-01-2008 2:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 86 (458822)
03-02-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
03-02-2008 9:41 AM


General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
Okay, let's go back to the example of the sphere. Geodesics in the time direction are lines of longitude. Our experience of time passing means that we are all moving down lines of longitude. Hence, latitude is our measure of time, while longitude is a measure of spatial location. A person on this world sees her universe as having one spatial dimension (she thinks she lives on a line) and one time dimension.
Now imaging three galaxies, one, where our protaganist is located, at longitude 0, which we will call O, galaxy A at 30 degrees longitude, and galaxy B at 60 degrees longitude.
Now, as observed by our scientists at O, both A and B seem to be moving a way from her since the lines of longitude are diverging. (Unless they have already passed the equator, in which case they will seem to be coming together). What is more, as the galaxies move down the lines of longitude, the further galaxy, B, seems to be receding at a faster rate than A.
In fact, it could be that the rate at which O and B are moving apart seems to be faster than the speed of light. Now, in this case, the scientist at O cannot actually see galaxy B. However, she may be familiar with General Relativity, and can hypothesize that her universe is a curved 2-manifold, and may even theorize that it is a sphere. She may not be able to physically construct this model of a 2-sphere existing in a 3-d universe in her 1-d space, but if she knows differential geometry she can do all the math.
In this case, she can then put a coordinate system on the sphere, perhaps based on lines of latitude and longitude. She can then figure out how to calculate actual distances in her standard system of units on this sphere based on their coordinates, much like we can calculate the distances between any two cities on the surface of the earth if we only know their coordinates.
Now she can deduce that even if she cannot see it, there exists a geodesic along the 60 degree longitude line. Furthermore, she can now calculate the distance along a line of latitude between 0 and the hypothetical galaxy B (distance along a line of latitude being an actual distance in space), and she will notice that this distance is increasing at a rate faster than the speed of light.
I'll leave it to cavediver or Son Goku to critique the accuracy of this analogy.
Edited by Chiroptera, : construct -> physically construct
Edited by Chiroptera, : criticize -> critique

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 9:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 12:09 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 86 (458842)
03-02-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Straggler
03-02-2008 12:09 PM


Re: General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
What does the equator on this imaginary sphere represent in terms of the lifecycle of the universe?
Well, that would be the point in time when the expansion of the universe stops and begins to contract.
However, remember that all analogies are flawed (if an analogy was perfect, it would probably be as difficult to understand as the original problem). In this case, a sphere is a geometrical shape with two spatial dimensions, one of which I'm pretending is a time dimension. It might be possible to put a non-positive definite metric on the sphere -- I don't have enough intuition about pseudo-Riemannian manifolds (or even a good basic knowledge) to determine whether the 2-sphere can be a pseudo-Riemannian manifold. Cavediver? Son Goku?
I mention this, because I can change the model from a sphere to an elliptic paraboloid (look it up to see what it looks like) in which our closed 1-d space expands forever; however, I think I've read that if the expansion does go on forever, then the spatial dimensions cannot be compact -- space must go on for infinity. So either an elliptic paraboloid cannot be given a Lorentzian metric consistent with GR, or 4-manifolds are different than 2-manifolds.
-
Is rate of expansion a misleading phrase? It seems more like a rate of divergence/convergence?
Well, at one latitude, a cross-section perpendicular to the time direction gives a circle;' at a later "time" (a lower latitude) the circle is larger; space has expanded. This expansion occurred between two different latitudes (that is, between two different times). Amount of expansion divided by time is rate of expansion.
Whether you want to see this as the fact that the circle is bigger, or whether you want to see this as the geodesics diverging from one another is a matter of choice. The latter, I believe, is more natural in terms of the mathematics of what is happening; the former is what we observe in the real world when we point our telescopes at the sky.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typos; also a "parabaloid" -> "an elliptic paraboloid"

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 2:44 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 2:44 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 86 (458866)
03-02-2008 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by cavediver
03-02-2008 2:27 PM


Re: Speed of Light
As an object with rest-mass, you have a 4-dimensional velocity vector with fixed length (which we will call length c).
Ah. This is what I was missing. Certain things are bit clearer in my mind now. Thanks.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 2:27 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 86 (458879)
03-02-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by cavediver
03-02-2008 2:44 PM


Re: General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
Heh. I had to look up what FLWR meant. But thanks; I've learned something. Maybe I'll even become smarter than ICANT!

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 2:44 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 86 (458887)
03-02-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Explorer
03-02-2008 3:06 PM


Re: General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
what would happen if "something" went faster than light speed?
Good question. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any real theories to tell us what would happen.
Now in the case of the galaxies moving apart, the appearence of "motion" faster than light is kind of an illusion -- the distance between the galaxies is increasing at a rate faster than the speed of light, but the galaxies, in a sense, aren't really moving in space.
The moral of the story: an change in the distance between two objects isn't necessarily due to spatial motion.
Or something.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Explorer, posted 03-02-2008 3:06 PM Explorer has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 86 (459171)
03-04-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by LucyTheApe
03-04-2008 11:36 AM


Re: Speed of Light
The particles will be accelerated towards the center of the pea as that is where the center of gravity is.... Where is my logic wrong?
Your logic is wrong in that (if this is meant to be analogous to the universe according to GR) there is no "center of the the pea." The surface of the pea is all that exists. There is no "inside the pea." There is no "outside the pea." All that exists is the surface of the pea.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Oops. Typo.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by LucyTheApe, posted 03-04-2008 11:36 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
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