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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 631 of 663 (823324)
11-09-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by starman
11-07-2017 4:05 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
starman writes:

I think Jesus will show us one day, and the nobel nonsense will be extinct.

Let me see if I properly understand you. You say to science that it really does not understand the measurement of time in distant stars and galaxies, right?

As a believer, do you think that science has been deceived or misled in some way?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever?

How should a believer approach science? Is it wise or even possible to reject the scientific method as now presented?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:05 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 633 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2017 11:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 637 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 3:25 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 632 of 663 (823325)
11-09-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Phat
11-09-2017 9:58 AM


Re: A bridge to the stars
Phat writes:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever?

There you go making meaningless statements again.

Since at one time Jesus may have been alive and since at one time it is claimed Jesus was dead and since at one time it is asserted that Jesus ascended into heaven then the Bible says Jesus is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Phat, posted 11-09-2017 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 3:30 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 633 of 663 (823332)
11-09-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Phat
11-09-2017 9:58 AM


Re: A bridge to the stars
How should a believer approach science? ...

With profound curiosity and an open mind: remember, if god/s created the universe then the evidence of that creation lies in what we can parse out on how it was structured, assembled and implemented.

... Is it wise or even possible to reject the scientific method as now presented?

It is the best method humans have yet devised for parsing out how things work, how it is structured.

For instance there are several versions of all the various religious texts ...

what among them is consistent? what among them is different and then how can we test one against another?

What is your paradigm for sorting truth from fiction?

starman writes:

I think Jesus will show us one day, and the nobel nonsense will be extinct.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever?

I would be surprised if modern Christians would recognize or accept him. Middle eastern immigrant?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Phat, posted 11-09-2017 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 11:40 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 634 of 663 (823333)
11-09-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by RAZD
11-09-2017 11:32 AM


if Jesus returned
RAZD writes:

I would be surprised if modern Christians would recognize or accept him. Middle eastern immigrant?

At best he would be just another Rag-Head but most likely proof of the vast Jewish Conspiracy. Remember, Jesus was always a Jew, never a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2017 11:32 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 635 of 663 (823334)
11-09-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by starman
11-08-2017 8:16 PM


The Win-Win situation for Science
starman writes:

You cannot compare computers to the far past nature on earth, or to unknown deep space. Irrelevant.

Well, I can, actually. I just don't think you understand why. So I'll move on to something different:

Let's talk about the difference between Science beliefs and Religious beliefs.

Here "Science beliefs" are the ideas of Science using the scientific method.
While "Religious beliefs" are the ideas of Religion using the religious fundamental ideas.

Can beliefs change?
There is no such thing as a Scientific belief that cannot change.
Science would throw away any Theory, any Law, any fundamental concept, any idea at all that can be shown to be wrong and replaced with something that is better.

Fundamental Religious beliefs, however, cannot change. If they change, then you no longer believe in the religion.
You cannot have a Christian that does not believe in Christ or God.
You cannot have a Muslim that does not believe in Allah.
There are always fundamental beliefs in religion that are tied to that religion, and if you don't accept them... you are no longer part of that religion.

What does this mean for being right?
Changeable beliefs are either right, or if wrong they can be changed to be right anyway.
Unchangeable beliefs are either right, or wrong.

All of Science's beliefs are changeable. Every. Single. One.
If Science is ever wrong about anything, it's only temporary until it makes progress, changes the belief, and gets back to being right again.

Some of Religion's beliefs are unchangeable. At least a few, sometimes many.
If an unchangeable Religious belief is ever wrong, it's wrong forever.

What's the best case scenario?
The best Religion can ever do, is hope to tie Science about being right.
The best Science can ever do, is be right regardless of what Religion thinks.

What's the worst case scenario?
The worst Religion can ever do, is be wrong forever.
The worst Science can ever do, is tie Religion about being right.

Not all beliefs are the same.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by starman, posted 11-08-2017 8:16 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 3:28 PM Stile has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 636 of 663 (823346)
11-09-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by starman
11-08-2017 8:13 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
starman writes:

You can't see time or that it exists the same as here.

Yes, you can. That is exactly what SN1987a showed us.

You only assumed a bunch of things and believed.

They are the same assumptions you use when crossing the street.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by starman, posted 11-08-2017 8:13 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
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starman
Inactive Member


Message 637 of 663 (823369)
11-09-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Phat
11-09-2017 9:58 AM


Re: A bridge to the stars
I would suggest approaching so called sciences regarding origins the same way we approach fables and gods.

My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Phat, posted 11-09-2017 9:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
starman
Inactive Member


Message 638 of 663 (823371)
11-09-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Taq
11-09-2017 12:33 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
How did the SN show us time was the same?

My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Taq, posted 11-09-2017 12:33 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
starman
Inactive Member


Message 639 of 663 (823372)
11-09-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Stile
11-09-2017 11:46 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
No. You cannot compare what we see happening today to the far future or past. Not at all. To do so is merely to believe that the laws of today will or did apply.

As for the religion of science and the belief set it espouses, you need more than beliefs. Sorry.


My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Stile, posted 11-09-2017 11:46 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 644 by Stile, posted 11-10-2017 10:08 AM starman has responded

  
starman
Inactive Member


Message 640 of 663 (823373)
11-09-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by jar
11-09-2017 10:23 AM


Re: A bridge to the stars
I can be the same even if I vacation in Rome. We do not need to freeze frame and stop living to be the same. God is alive and moving. He does stuff.

My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 10:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 5:26 PM starman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 641 of 663 (823399)
11-09-2017 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 640 by starman
11-09-2017 3:30 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
But that is NOT what the Bible says.

Once again, we have the evidence (and we have actually read the Bible) and so we win.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 3:30 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 11:49 PM jar has responded

  
starman
Inactive Member


Message 642 of 663 (823413)
11-09-2017 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by jar
11-09-2017 5:26 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
Yes it is anyone can look at the first verse of chapter 2 and see it was over and done in verse 1.

You have no evidence of your oft touted same nature i the past. You lose totally.

Edited by starman, : No reason given.


My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 5:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 11:58 PM starman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 643 of 663 (823415)
11-09-2017 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 642 by starman
11-09-2017 11:49 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
starman writes:

Yes it is anyone can look at the first verse of chapter 2 and see it was over and done in verse 1.

Only the ignorant would think that. Remember, the Bible is a fairly new human creation. Everything in it started out as separate writings and none of the authors of any of it considered trying to smush all the different stories together as though it were one book. At best, a Bible is an anthology of anthologies.

But your ignorance does not change the Fact that Genesis 1 was written long, long after Genesis 2&3 and in a different culture and ethos.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 11:49 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 644 of 663 (823430)
11-10-2017 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by starman
11-09-2017 3:28 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
No. You cannot compare what we see happening today to the far future or past. Not at all.

Sure you can. It's pretty easy.
I bet you could if you really tried to focus your mind. Just take a breath and try to relax a bit first, then give it a try. I believe in you.

To do so is merely to believe that the laws of today will or did apply.

Exactly. And, as we all know, this leads to a wonderful win-win scenario for progress through science.
Onward and upward, science can't lose!

As for the religion of science and the belief set it espouses, you need more than beliefs. Sorry.

For sure. This is why we have this:

What's the best case scenario?
The best Religion can ever do, is hope to tie Science about being right.
The best Science can ever do, is be right regardless of what Religion thinks.

What's the worst case scenario?
The worst Religion can ever do, is be wrong forever.
The worst Science can ever do, is tie Religion about being right.

That doesn't even use the word belief. It's based on the processes and ability to make progress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 3:28 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by starman, posted 11-10-2017 12:07 PM Stile has responded

    
starman
Inactive Member


Message 645 of 663 (823449)
11-10-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Stile
11-10-2017 10:08 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
You admit all you do is believe the forces and laws were the same. You are not here to debate then I guess.

My Blog where comments and debate are welcome
https://mountaintwentyone.wixsite.com/home/blog

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Stile, posted 11-10-2017 10:08 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Stile, posted 11-10-2017 12:43 PM starman has not yet responded

  
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