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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 706 of 736 (827486)
01-26-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 700 by creation
01-26-2018 9:33 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
The evidence for a same time in deep space is zilch. ...

Curiously, denying the evidence again and again does not make it go away. The only one you are fooling is yourself.

The star checker game shows your assertions to be fantasy.

... God any actual science?

Last time I checked God was not a science.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:33 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:39 PM RAZD has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 707 of 736 (827490)
01-26-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 702 by creation
01-26-2018 9:38 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

You have never taken any clock out of the fishbowl actually.

Until you present evidence for this fishbowl, you have no argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:38 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:41 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 708 of 736 (827492)
01-26-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by creation
01-26-2018 9:35 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.

That evidence is presented in the opening post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:43 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 709 of 736 (827500)
01-26-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by creation
01-26-2018 9:35 AM


Re: The Win-Win and WIN again situation for Science
razd writes:

Says the person who denies that the game models this, and still ends up with a scientific distance to SN1987A.

Of course, admitting that fact would mean that the fantasy is exposed as the garbage concept it is.

Ignoring evidence that contradicts your belief is delusion.

Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.

Says the person who has no evidence presented to ignore. Every test scientists have made show a continuous pattern of time-space, and there is no cause, no rational, no reason, to believe anything else.

Amusingly the star space checker game accounts for things being different.

In addition you have failed to present any evidence whatsoever that there has been any kind of change. You want us to 'prove' you wrong when you have provided no evidence to evaluate for truthiness.

Wishing is not science, denial of science is not science, making stuff up out of the blue is not science.

You need to show the errors and evidence that it is errors (not make it up) if you want to say the current understanding of time and space is wrong. The onus is on you.

Once again you provide a stellar example of the ridiculous lengths creationists will go to pretend that reality does not exist as described by science -- you have to make everything illusion with not one thing based on fact.

Teaching moments like this almost become comedy routines, when you keep playing patsy, doing the same prat-falls over and over and over again.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:56 PM RAZD has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 710 of 736 (827512)
01-26-2018 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by creation
01-26-2018 9:54 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

percy writes:

When we look at the spectrum of light emitted from the sun, we can tell what gasses are present in the suns atmosphere by the lines of absorption. Different elements absorb light at different wavelengths. When we look at the spectrum of light arriving from distant stars and galaxies we see the same absorption lines, only shifted according to their velocity of line-of-sight recession. This means that these distant stars are composed as the same elements as our sun, though of course in differing amounts and at different temperatures. The relative position of the absorption lines means that time passes there in the same way it passes here. This is based on observations and not on beliefs.


Not in any way is that true.

Given the stuff you make up, why would anyone believe you?

The position of lines tells us nothing about time there.

Given that the positions of the spectral lines are at specific frequencies, and given that frequency is a function of time, how could the position of the spectral lines fail to tell us about space-time out there?

Yes there are elements and gasses out there. However that is only what we see, so who knows what else is also out there that we cannot detect?

Anything that has an effect on what we *can* see is detectable. What we see in spectral lines does not appear distorted or altered beyond the expected effects of Doppler shift and the expansion of space.

Science admits seeing only 5% remember?

More accurately, only 5% of the universe consists of baryonic (normal) matter. The rest is dark matter (25%) and dark energy (70%), which are present here on Earth and in our solar system, in other words, inside your "fishbowl," an entirely inappropriate and poorly chosen term for a phenomenon that has never been observed and for which there is no evidence, and certainly no theoretical foundation.

Dark matter is invisible. It cannot be "seen" except by its gravitational effects on things that are visible, like galaxies and galactic clusters. It can affect the shift of spectral lines. Dark energy is just a placeholder term for whatever is causing the accelerating expansion of the universe, and it, too, can affect the shift of spectral lines, though the mechanism is not gravitational but is a result of its effect on space-time.

We observe from wherever we happen to be at the time, whether with or own eyes or by way of remote probes. And no matter where we happen to observe from, the laws of physics that we observe are always the same.

IN ALL cases you are in the fishbowl of earth and solar system area! No exceptions. Thus far and no further.

As long as observations are adjusted according to the laws of general relativity, all observers see the same thing regardless of location. There is no evidence of your 1.4 light day diameter "fishbowl" centered on our sun where the laws of nature are different from the rest of the universe. You're just making things up. You'd be making just as much sense if you claimed griffins and unicorns were real, since there's just as much evidence for them as for your fictional "fishbowl."

We see this same absorption spectra when we look at distant stars, confirming that what happens here also happens there, but shifted toward lower longer wavelengths because of speed of recession and the expansion of space.

It is almost meaningless that the light we see here behaves a certain way here.

The light we observe here, whether it originated locally or from another galaxy, appears to behave the same.

That tells us nothing about time there.

The expansion of space is a significant factor when observing objects at great distances from here - there's a red shift that we observe in spectral lines. Doppler shifts are a factor when observing objects moving relative to ourselves - there can be a red or blue shift in the spectral lines. Most cosmological objects moving relative to us at any significant speed are receding (red shift), though the nearby Andromeda galaxy (blue shift) is an exception.

Without time there being as here,...

Whatever the contributions to the shift, it is more accurate to talk of space-time rather than just time.

...no distances/mass/sizes etc etc are known.

The cosmic distance ladder allows us to know the distance to most cosmological objects with a fair degree of accuracy. The masses of many objects can be calculated from the effects of gravity. The sizes of stars are a rough function of star type and age, which we know from inherent brightness and examination of the spectra. The sizes of galaxies can be inferred using analogous techniques.

We could get spectra from the space station of hydrogen also...so? That would be significant because we do know how far away that is.

On the space station you'd need a glowing gas that contained hydrogen. If you performed the experiment in such a way that you could observe the glowing gas both from the space station and also from the ground here on Earth, you'd find that the spectral lines observed here on Earth had been shifted by the slightest amounts from those observed on the space station because of the gravity well that light from the space station falls into.

Most certainly it tells us how much time is involved. f = c / λ, where f is cycles/second and c is meters/second. Most certainly time is a critical component.

Most certainly not actually. The C is only representing light acting and moving IN time HERE.

This would be false. c is a universal constant, the same throughout the universe.

In fact all the symbols and letters in your formula are fishbowl figures!

Your "fishbowl" is a fiction with no evidence or data, not even some offbeat theoretical basis. All the evidence we have says that f = c / λ holds true everywhere.

The actual question was why you think we can only know time exists where we are. Crossing the street was just an example. Try to keep up.

The actual point was that a street on earth is not appropriate in measuring deep space.

Well in that case you should say what you mean. How do you know what the distance is for the diameter of your "fishbowl"? You have no data, so how do you know what light from outside the "fishbowl" looks like? Maybe it looks just like light from inside the "fishbowl." How would you know? Given your complete lack of data, the "fishbowl" might extend to the end of your nose, or maybe to your front door, or maybe to the next street, or maybe to the next town, or maybe to the next country, or maybe (gasp!) across the entire universe. Who knows? You certainly don't, because all you have is something you made up.

The probe is just an example of your ever shrinking religious claims. As the probe becomes more distant your religiously based claims dwindle. But the Voyager probes are just one of the sources of data we have for why the laws of nature here are the same out there.

The Voyager is on the fringes (at best) of the fishbowl. That has zero to do with nature in the past.

The fictional "fishbowl", you mean? The one with no evidence that you made up?

When we receive radio signals from the Voyagers, they're from about 17 hours in the past.

The evidence provided is what we see.

Then you see less than I thought.

No one could see less than you thought.

c is a fundamental constant of the universe,

You are mistaken as shown. C is the speed of light in the fishbowl! You only assumed it reflected the whole universe.

c is a universal constant, and I believe it is always lowercase, even at the beginning of a sentence. There are no assumptions. If the laws governing the universe were different out there than they are here, we would observe distant objects obeying those different laws. We don't. We observe them obeying the same laws that apply here.

and because f = c / λ we know from our observations of the behavior of matter in distant stars and galaxies that the speed of light is the same there as here.

Not at all. You do not just get to declare the speed of light in the fishbowl some universal constant. The fine constant structure also is a fishbowl concept. So is any force or anything else here. Energy also.

The reason we don't get to declare the speed of light or the fine structure constant or forces or energy in the "fishbowl" as universal is because there's no such thing as the "fishbowl." Things that exist that make a difference leave evidence behind, and your "fishbowl" ain't got no evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:54 AM creation has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10479
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 711 of 736 (827516)
01-26-2018 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by creation
01-26-2018 9:57 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Too bad none of that tells us anything abut time there. Since we NEED time to exist to know distances and sizes, seeing hydrogen or something doesn't help since we do not know how far away it is.

My explanation tells why our observations do tell us about how time progresses in remote locations. Instead of addressing a single point that I made, what you do here is repeat your denial.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:57 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:35 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19478
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 712 of 736 (827523)
01-27-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by creation
01-26-2018 9:35 AM


A couple questions for creation ...
Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.

Please define the limits of your "fishbowl" ... is it your brain? the earth? the solar system? the galaxy? the universe?

Where's the line?

How do you know?

How can we tell if you are right?

You have made similar claims about the past ... what is the limit of our knowledge of the past: is it your lifetime? written history? the archeological history of human existence? the paleontological history of life of earth? the age of the earth? the age of the universe?

Where's the line?

How do you know?

How can we tell if you are right?

If you can't answer these questions, then why should we consider your argument worth considering?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:59 PM RAZD has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 713 of 736 (827525)
01-27-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 711 by NoNukes
01-26-2018 9:01 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
nonukes writes:

...

The only place you see anything progress is here. Face it. Light we see here is here. No matter where it is from it is seen here, and unfolds in time here. No denying it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2018 9:01 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2018 2:46 PM creation has responded
 Message 727 by Percy, posted 01-27-2018 6:51 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 714 of 736 (827526)
01-27-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by RAZD
01-26-2018 10:30 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
razd writes:

..

God is not a cheerio God is not a dollar bill, and God is not science. Since God is known by a plethora of infallible proofs outside of science, reason demands that the inability of science to detect God does not mean much outside of science. They just have pathetic detecting ability.

You have not dealt with time in far space so it is disingenuous to pretend some evidence was offered.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2018 10:30 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2018 1:47 PM creation has responded
 Message 722 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2018 3:33 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 715 of 736 (827527)
01-27-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by Taq
01-26-2018 11:02 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
taq writes:

...

Since all the fishbowl represents is the extend of what man knows and where he has been, the evidence is clear and undeniable and overwhelming. W only been so far, and we only know so much.

Edited by creation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by Taq, posted 01-26-2018 11:02 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by caffeine, posted 01-27-2018 3:35 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 716 of 736 (827528)
01-27-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Taq
01-26-2018 11:03 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
taq writes:

...

Nothing about time far away was presented actually.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Taq, posted 01-26-2018 11:03 AM Taq has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5586
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 717 of 736 (827529)
01-27-2018 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by creation
01-27-2018 1:39 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Since God is known by a plethora of infallible proofs outside of science []

Fantastic, let's see these proofs.

ps, why not learn to use quotes properly?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:39 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 720 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 718 of 736 (827530)
01-27-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
01-26-2018 1:24 PM


Re: The Win-Win and WIN again situation for Science
razd writes:

Says the person who has no evidence presented to ignore.

All that I ask is that you cease and desist ignoring the lack of evidence you have, and admit it is belief.


Every test scientists have made show a continuous pattern of time-space, and there is no cause, no rational, no reason, to believe anything else.
Utterly meaningless. They put a clock in a plane. Whoopee do. They have no ability to test what time is outside this area. Heck, they don't even know what it is here!

Amusingly the star space checker game accounts for things being different.
Mind games may loom large inside your head. They have no bearing on reality though. You do not get to try and make the universe a checkerboard where the squares are all equal for no apparent reason...as clever as you might think your little invented games are.

In addition you have failed to present any evidence whatsoever that there has been any kind of change. You want us to 'prove' you wrong when you have provided no evidence to evaluate for truthiness.
I assume you are back on earth again? Well, science can't tell us if there was or was not a nature change here in the far past. So you may not claim either by science. I don't. I simply point out science doesn't know. Why not be honest also?

Wishing is not science, denial of science is not science, making stuff up out of the blue is not science.
Great. So when you get some science get back to us.

You need to show the errors and evidence that it is errors (not make it up) if you want to say the current understanding of time and space is wrong. The onus is on you.
Easy to do. The error is that they base all models on belief only. The error is in deep space, that they just believe time exists there as here with no evidence. The error on earth is that they use present nature t model the past when they do not know what nature existed. Check and mate.

Once again you provide a stellar example of the ridiculous lengths evos will go to pretend that the so called reality which is really religion, does exist as described by science -- you have to make everything illusion with not one thing based on fact. That origin science.

Edited by creation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2018 1:24 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2018 3:35 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 719 of 736 (827531)
01-27-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by RAZD
01-27-2018 8:31 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
Please define the limits of your "fishbowl"
The fishbowl is just a term to describe the solar system and area where man has actually been and has some direct knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2018 8:31 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2018 3:52 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 720 of 736 (827532)
01-27-2018 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 717 by Tangle
01-27-2018 1:47 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
tangle writes:

Fantastic, let's see these proofs.


You want to get into proofs that are outside of science on a science forum?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2018 1:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2018 6:03 PM creation has responded

    
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