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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
ringo
Member
Posts: 15584
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 826 of 880 (841817)
10-22-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Phat
10-22-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Confusing
Phat writes:

He likely will claim that though he himself can't see that far with 100% certainty, God certainly can and does.


That's circular. It depends on him having special access to "God's knowledge". Who's to say that a science-minded Christian can't have the same access to God?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Phat, posted 10-22-2018 12:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Phat, posted 10-22-2018 4:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1120
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 827 of 880 (841819)
10-22-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by creation
10-22-2018 9:12 AM


Re: Confusing
The light they see coming into the fishbowl will look a certain way to them. That does not mean that what they can see (and they admit most of the universe is dark to them) is all that there is out there.

I've already discussed this. Yes it doesn't mean what we can see is all there is out there, it mightn't even be 1% of what is out there. However what we can see fits stellar theory and scientifically that is all one can discuss, i.e. whether a theory fits observations.

Nor does it mean that time is the same out there. What we see take say, a day, could involve a much different level of time out there. Etc.

S0 38 So, rather than get into how far away and big they claim this light to be, can you tell us how it shows time is the same exactly? Redshifted light shows time is the same...how? Ha.


I don't think you really read other people's posts. I've already explained to you that General Relativity doesn't presume time works the same in the different places. How time works depends on (i.e. is "Relative", it's in the theory's name) where somebody is in relation to other massive objects and how fast they are moving.

So nobody is claiming time "works the same" out in the universe. If time did work the same, General Relativity would be wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by creation, posted 10-22-2018 9:12 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by creation, posted 10-23-2018 11:12 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 828 of 880 (841830)
10-22-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by ringo
10-22-2018 12:07 PM


Re: Confusing
It depends on him having special access to "God's knowledge".
Which brings up the obvious question of whether Gods "knowledge" is limited to only believers or whether it is accessible to everyone. Faith will likely assert that one must believe first which leads to one knowing that everything written must then be true.
Who's to say that a science-minded Christian can't have the same access to God?
Which then leads to the question of whether literal fundamentalist Christians see truths that other Christians miss.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 12:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15584
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 829 of 880 (841834)
10-22-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by Phat
10-22-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Confusing
Phat writes:

Which brings up the obvious question of whether Gods "knowledge" is limited to only believers or whether it is accessible to everyone.


Which in turn brings up the obvious question of who is a true believer - he who mouths, Lord! Lord! or he who shows some sign of having internalized the knowledge.

Phat writes:

Faith will likely assert that one must believe first which leads to one knowing that everything written must then be true.


Which is patently nonsense. You wouldn't claim that for any other book. You wouldn't say you have to believe The Catcher in the Rye before you know it's literally true.

Phat writes:

Which then leads to the question of whether literal fundamentalist Christians see truths that other Christians miss.


We know that they miss truths that others see - science, for example - so it seems likely that the trend is in that direction.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by Phat, posted 10-22-2018 4:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
creation
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 830 of 880 (841895)
10-23-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Son Goku
10-22-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Confusing
OK so you seem to be saying/admitting GR does not deal with what time really is, or what it is like in the far universe.

That alone defeats any case you could make.

No distances can be known unless time does exist and exist the same at all points to any star. No event seen here in time has any relative bearing on what time is involved at source! No light can take any known time to get to the area here...etc etc etc.

Your belief ship, the good ship cosmology is now full of holes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Son Goku, posted 10-22-2018 12:39 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Son Goku, posted 10-23-2018 12:27 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 831 of 880 (841896)
10-23-2018 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by ringo
10-22-2018 11:54 AM


Re: Confusing
Science cannot see outside the fishbowl. Any clues, or guesses/models I would hazard to make on the unknown would have to be based on the known gift of God to man..His word. Otherwise, man must plead ignorance and stop teaching kids and others a bunch of nonsense and godless fables.

I do not need to know all the mysteries of all creation and the created universe. All I need to know is that those claiming they do know are cons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by ringo, posted 10-22-2018 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by ringo, posted 10-23-2018 11:39 AM creation has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15584
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 832 of 880 (841899)
10-23-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 831 by creation
10-23-2018 11:15 AM


Re: Confusing
creation writes:

Science cannot see outside the fishbowl.


The question I asked was: How can YOU see outside the "fishbowl"?

creation writes:

Any clues, or guesses/models I would hazard to make on the unknown would have to be based on the known gift of God to man..His word.


That is not a "known gift". A small number of people believe it is a reliable source of information but reality does not support that belief.

creation writes:

I do not need to know all the mysteries of all creation and the created universe. All I need to know is that those claiming they do know are cons.


The thing is that we can compare science to reality and see that it is true - so we know that the con is YOU.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by creation, posted 10-23-2018 11:15 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by creation, posted 10-26-2018 10:26 AM ringo has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1120
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 833 of 880 (841906)
10-23-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by creation
10-23-2018 11:12 AM


Re: Confusing
I really don't know how you got that from my post.

GR does deal with what time is like in the far universe, my point was that it explicitly does not assume it is the same everywhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by creation, posted 10-23-2018 11:12 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2018 1:59 PM Son Goku has not yet responded
 Message 837 by creation, posted 10-26-2018 10:27 AM Son Goku has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19666
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 834 of 880 (841913)
10-23-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Son Goku
10-23-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Confusing
... my point was that it explicitly does not assume it is the same everywhere.

Careful, you're going to confuse him with facts.

Perhaps a touch of how time varies, as in near massive objects. The orbit of Mercury around the Sun as a case in point -- one within his fishbowl bubble ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Son Goku, posted 10-23-2018 12:27 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2018 4:15 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 835 of 880 (841916)
10-23-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by RAZD
10-23-2018 1:59 PM


Re: Confusing
RAZD writes:

Careful, you're going to confuse him with facts.

That's the very last thing anyone can do to creation. He wouldn't recognise a fact is Jesus himself gave it to him. His job is to bluster and obfuscate and rebut a fact filled, page length post with a content free one-liner, straight out of his own imagination.

Like John Cleese once said ‘what a senseless waste of human life'.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2018 1:59 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
creation
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 836 of 880 (842069)
10-26-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by ringo
10-23-2018 11:39 AM


Re: Confusing
Your idea of science is religion. Calling that reality is cultish ignorance.

As for your claim a small number of people reverence Scripture as a gift from God...ha.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by ringo, posted 10-23-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by ringo, posted 10-26-2018 12:02 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 837 of 880 (842070)
10-26-2018 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by Son Goku
10-23-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Confusing
Well if time is not the same everywhere, why would you claim that light took billions of years our time ti get here?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Son Goku, posted 10-23-2018 12:27 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by Son Goku, posted 10-31-2018 7:48 AM creation has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15584
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 838 of 880 (842087)
10-26-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 836 by creation
10-26-2018 10:26 AM


Re: Confusing
creation writes:

Your idea of science is religion. Calling that reality is cultish ignorance.


The cultish ignorance is yours. If you're so smart, why can't you answer any of the questions put to you?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by creation, posted 10-26-2018 10:26 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by creation, posted 10-27-2018 2:14 PM ringo has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 839 of 880 (842157)
10-27-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by ringo
10-26-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Confusing
I never said I was smart, that would be you. If science doesn't know, why would I want to pontificate reasons on a science forum??? Are you new to honest debate?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by ringo, posted 10-26-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 2:10 PM creation has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15584
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 840 of 880 (842242)
10-28-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 839 by creation
10-27-2018 2:14 PM


Re: Confusing
creation writes:

I never said I was smart, that would be you.


You claim to know better than thousands of scientists. I don't.

creation writes:

If science doesn't know, why would I want to pontificate reasons on a science forum???


You don't know what science does know, and yet you have the arrogance to pontificate on a science forum.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by creation, posted 10-27-2018 2:14 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by creation, posted 10-29-2018 10:44 AM ringo has responded

  
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