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Author Topic:   Question About the Universe
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19292
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 331 of 373 (741684)
11-13-2014 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by zaius137
11-13-2014 2:19 AM


Re: Absurd assumptions are misleading
That is a ridiculous claim… You might as well say all the surrounding rocks are radioactive, not just background but radioactive enough to cause contamination.

No, just in the area where Baumgardner gathered his samples.

Which is what leads me to the conclusion that it was intentional.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19292
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 332 of 373 (741686)
11-13-2014 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by zaius137
11-12-2014 11:01 PM


Re: sn 1987A -- simple math distance calculation and radioactive decay
Carbon control rods in reactors?? Once carbon is saturated with neutrons it is then less effective as a control rod.

So they have been phased out ...

From google scholar

quote:
Detection of radioactive 35S at Fukushima and other Japanese sites
A Priyadarshi, J Hill‐Falkenthal… - Journal of …, 2013 - Wiley Online Library
... Immediately after the earthquake, the reactors at the Fukushima nuclear power plant
were automatically shut down and boron–carbon control rods inserted between the fuel
columns to absorb neutrons and halt the nuclear chain reaction. ...

The paper cited is from 1977, so they were used.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19292
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 333 of 373 (741687)
11-13-2014 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by JonF
11-13-2014 12:53 PM


Re: sn 1987A -- simple math distance calculation
Yes, but we can put some tight boundaries on the possible extent of such variation from astrophysics, and from the heat/radiation problem. See Heat and radiation destroy claims of accelerated nuclear decay.

AND, getting back to the subtitle ... SN1987A demonstrates that radioactive rates have not varied significantly in the last 168,000 years.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Astrophile
Member
Posts: 66
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 334 of 373 (741688)
11-13-2014 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by zaius137
11-11-2014 9:41 PM


Re: The hand of God
Your point is valid, but it is just speculation at this point if these stars even existed. Since finding a Population III star would be one of the most significant finds in modern astronomy. Without any empirical evidence of a Population III star, no one can claim that all metals except lithium were created in stars.

A search for 'Population III stars' turned up some interesting information. Observations (R.A.E. Fosbury et al., 2003) of a gravitationally lensed galaxy (z = 3.36) a show anomalous emission-line intensities in the Si III doublet at 188.3 nm and 189.2 nm; this over-abundance of Si may be a nucleosynthetic signature of past pair-instability supernovae in a Population III cluster. T.H. Puzia et al., 2006; (Astrophys. J., 248, 383-388) also find evidence for pair-instability supernovae in the metal abundances of globular clusters in elliptical galaxies. The metal abundances in SDSS J0018-0939 also appear to show the signature of pair-instability supernovae. Kashlinsky et al. (Nature, 2005) attribute the angular power spectrum and amplitude of large-scale fluctuations in the (IR) background to light from the Population III era. One of your own sources said that the distribution of metal abundances in stars is consistent with nucleosynthesis in supernovae with typical masses of 16 to 33 solar masses, and another source says that metal abundances in extremely metal-poor Population II stars implies that their metal-free progenitors had masses of 20-130 solar masses.

There have been various hypotheses for the failure to find Population III stars.
Population III stars may have been massive (>1 solar mass), so that all of them have run their course and there are no main-sequence or giant representatives left. They may have accreted metals from the interstellar medium (perhaps even from supernova remnants), or their surface layers may contain ‘metals’ dredged up from the stellar core where they were made.

And how old is the milky way?

Age estimates from the oldest globular cluster range from 12.6 to 13.4 Gyr. Extremely metal-poor stars, such as HD 140283, SDSS J102915+172927 (Caffau’s star) and SMSS J031300.36-670839.3 have ages of 13 Gyr or more. Studies of white dwarfs show that the Galactic halo is about 11.4 Gyr. The age of the Galactic disc is 8.8±1.7 Gyr.

Let's get to the point. There is compelling evidence that the universe began in a high-density high-temperature state 13.8 Gyr ago, and that hydrogen, helium and lithium were formed in this initial state, about three minutes after time zero. There is also compelling evidence that we can now observe stars that contain small quantities of 'metals' that were formed more than 13 Gyr ago. Nobody has found a way of producing elements heavier than lithium in the 'Big Bang', but these elements are present in the oldest stars that we can see. You say that these 'metals' were not produced in a first generation of metal-free stars. Very well, then; what is your hypothesis for the origin of these 'metals'?


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jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 335 of 373 (741690)
11-13-2014 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by RAZD
11-13-2014 7:55 PM


Re: sn 1987A -- simple math distance calculation
Doesn't Oklo show that rates have not changed for at least two billion years?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19292
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 336 of 373 (741692)
11-13-2014 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by jar
11-13-2014 8:11 PM


Re: sn 1987A -- simple math distance calculation
Doesn't Oklo show that rates have not changed for at least two billion years?

Indeed, so there are multiple lines of information with consilient results ...

... and any theory of changing radioactive must be able to account for all of them having similar results.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1851
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 337 of 373 (741701)
11-13-2014 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by zaius137
11-13-2014 11:58 AM


Re: Baumgardner and his 14C Lies of Omission
zaius137 writes:

now all you have to do is show me where C-14 was predicted to be in diamonds before it was discovered in diamonds. Citation please…

This doesn’t make any sense. You do know that the crystallography of diamonds has been studied for hundreds of years? You also do know that they figured out that diamonds mainly consist of carbon, but with varying degrees of nitrogen, as well, many, many years before carbon dating were invented? You also do know that C-14 was discovered way before the C-14 method was invented? You do know what physicists do for a living, don't you?

zaius137 writes:

To assume that C-14 just arrives at random in diamonds is alchemy. If there is no source of radiation (lots of it) C-14 cannot form spontaneously. Citation please…Unless you want to claim God put it there…

You do know that C-14 forms from radioactive decay of N-14? You also do know that N-14 can also form from certain radiation on C-14? You do know that many rock forming minerals are radioactive, don't you?

It is very, very basic. High school level stuff. Or were you home-schooled?


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1851
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 338 of 373 (741703)
11-13-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by zaius137
11-13-2014 12:07 PM


Re: C-14 in coal and oil
zaius137 writes:

You know, you coal miner folk are the heart of Americas working force.

I'm not American and I've never worked in America. Did a few courses there, though.

zaius137 writes:

My utter respect for the coal you produce.

I'm not a miner, so I don't produce any coal. I am doing research on coal, though. Coal mining companies pay me to do it.

zaius137 writes:

Unfortunately, there is not much science coming out of coal mines these days.

Or more likely, you've never, ever read any geological research in your life.

Edited by Pressie, : Changed sentence

Edited by Pressie, : Added link


This message is a reply to:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 339 of 373 (741709)
11-14-2014 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Astrophile
11-13-2014 8:02 PM


Re: The hand of God
quote:
Let's get to the point. There is compelling evidence that the universe began in a high-density high-temperature state 13.8 Gyr ago, and that hydrogen, helium and lithium were formed in this initial state, about three minutes after time zero. There is also compelling evidence that we can now observe stars that contain small quantities of 'metals' that were formed more than 13 Gyr ago. Nobody has found a way of producing elements heavier than lithium in the 'Big Bang', but these elements are present in the oldest stars that we can see. You say that these 'metals' were not produced in a first generation of metal-free stars. Very well, then; what is your hypothesis for the origin of these 'metals’?

The best observational evidence is still lacking for population III stars. There is no way the Big Bang can continue as a viable theory without population III stars (if it is even a viable theory now).

quote:
Nobody has found a way of producing elements heavier than lithium in the 'Big Bang', but these elements are present in the oldest stars that we can see.

I agree.

quote:
You say that these 'metals' were not produced in a first generation of metal-free stars.

I only implied that since population III stars are not observed there is no reason to believe the current explication of stellar existence.


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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 340 of 373 (741711)
11-14-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Pressie
11-13-2014 11:49 PM


Re: C-14 in coal and oil
quote:
I’m not a miner, so I don't produce any coal. I am doing research on coal, though. Coal mining companies pay me to do it.

Since you research coal (probably not your dream job) you might just check it for C-14.


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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 341 of 373 (741712)
11-14-2014 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Pressie
11-13-2014 11:38 PM


Re: Baumgardner and his 14C Lies of Omission
quote:
You do know that C-14 forms from radioactive decay of N-14? You also do know that N-14 can also form from certain radiation on C-14? You do know that many rock forming minerals are radioactive, don't you?

C-14 does not form from a radioactive decay of N-14. It is a slow neutron being absorbed by stable nitrogen (N-14).

Carbon-14 is produced in the upper layers of the troposphere and the stratosphere by thermal neutrons absorbed by nitrogen atoms.

I guess you did go to school in the United States.


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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 342 of 373 (741714)
11-14-2014 3:01 AM


C-14 in diamonds is native.
This brings up a good point… What are good sources for slow or thermal neutrons. Not just any radioactive source can convert Nitrogen into C-14. Only sources that produce neutrons directly or threw a simple chain of low weight elements.

The mechanism for creating C-14 in diamonds just got more complicated.


Replies to this message:
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 343 of 373 (741715)
11-14-2014 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by RAZD
11-13-2014 8:47 PM


Re: sn 1987A -- nothing to do with age of universe
quote:
Indeed, so there are multiple lines of information with consilient results ...
... and any theory of changing radioactive must be able to account for all of them having similar results.

That is another bad assumption.

It is clear that delta’s in decay rates are not the same across the board. Why some isotopes are affected in different ways by time of year or sun distance is unknown. The mechanism is still uncertain.

But the data is clear, Atomic decay rates are not as stable as once thought.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19292
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 344 of 373 (741716)
11-14-2014 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by zaius137
11-14-2014 3:23 AM


Re: sn 1987A -- nothing to do with age of universe
That is another bad assumption.

It's not an assumption, it's an observation that similar results are seen from different sources.

But the data is clear, Atomic decay rates are not as stable as once thought.

Yet we still know that the decay rates are stable for extended periods of time -- over 168,000 years in the case of observed decay from SN1987A.

All the differences found to date are still insignificant in affecting the measurements for the age of the universe.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 3:23 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by zaius137, posted 11-14-2014 4:43 AM RAZD has responded
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zaius137
Member (Idle past 1019 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 345 of 373 (741719)
11-14-2014 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by RAZD
11-14-2014 3:30 AM


Re: sn 1987A -- nothing to do with age of universe
quote:
Yet we still know that the decay rates are stable for extended periods of time -- over 168,000 years in the case of observed decay from SN1987A.
All the differences found to date are still insignificant in affecting the measurements for the age of the universe.

Did that distance of 168,000 light years include the co-moving inflation distance (it is outside our galaxy). Even if it does, you expect me to believe that the decay deviation is outside the standard deviation for these elements.

What I have said, over and over, is that the variance seems to be dependent on the element, distance from sun or solar flare (mechanisms are not yet known). How are these elements in proximity of influence of a nearby star? They are in free space, so how can you say they are even relevant to our argument?

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


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