sophistry and propaganda at TalkOrigins...

Did someone accuse you of incivility in that thread? It certainly wasn't me since I posted nothing after Message 11.Staying on topic is a problem for you because you tend to throw everything including the kitchen sink into every discussion. The last few messages we've exchanged have developed out of my dismay at your Message 20 and Message 21 in this thread, not some other thread. If you'd want an attaboy for being able to control yourself for a whole quarter of a thread over at Sam Harris/Andrew Sullivan Online Debate at Beliefnet, then attaboy! Great job!Meanwhile in other threads it was same-old, same-old. As I said recently about your replies to my inquiry about how your contributions could be interpreted as constructive, they were a formula for escalation and confrontation. Moderators cannot calm things down if one of the participants always ignores moderator requests because he feels he's been so wronged he doesn't have to follow any rules.I've gone way, way out of my way in trying to accommodate your voice here, and if you aren't interested in availing yourself of the opportunity because you've nominated yourself as the person who's going to wreak vengeance on evolutionists for all their crimes, then you're just not going to have much of a voice.

---

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Perhaps rather than be dismayed at the content of message 20 and 21 then, you could address the content of the claims made instead of addressing the persona of the poster making them. The simple fact is that despite being an insulting or embarassing claim, the reality is that it is true and needs to be pointed out. It's not just TalkOrigins. It's a basic illogic staple in the defense of ToE. Is it inflammatory to point it out? Sure.But it's even worse that evos keep using this illogic?I suppose you would prefer IDers and creationists just keep quiet about such things? Don't make waves by pointing out inherent sophistry in the founding logic of evolutionism?Why not just make all non-evo participants agree to say they are wrong, and ToE advocates are right up-front, if that's the approach here?Edited by randman, : No reason given.

But you never establish that it's illogic. You just argue that it is for a couple posts, then after that everyone who still disagrees is subjected to accusations of intellectual dishonesty, of being indoctrinated, etc. That's why you're in Showcase, because thread after thread in which you were a participant became a 12 car pileup. Civil discussion, that's all that's required. The reason for this is that without civility discussions degenerate into pissing contests. As I've explained over and over and over, EvC Forum is here in order to make possible civil discussion between creationists and evolutionists. I'm not changing that, so you can accept this and get on the bus with everyone else, or you can stand on the street corner and watch the bus go by without you. Your choice.Notice that I am not claiming that evolutionists are angels. I said before that both evolutionists and creationists are just people. But when a moderator enters a thread and says cool it, you're usually the one who doesn't cool it. And you'll argue lengthily for why you shouldn't have to cool it. You'll instead argue that you're justified in upping the ante, evening the score, escalating the conflict. Moderators will always be unable to address anyone else's jaywalking while you're committing grand theft auto. If you insist on doing things your way, then this is where you'll stay.It is also a significant problem for you that you have a whole raft of opinions where in your mind you've checked off the little box that says "I've already established this beyond doubt," whether true or not, and it's usually not. Once you've checked off that little box, you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is fair game for charges of dishonesty, indoctrination, not thinking, etc.Whether you agree with anything I say or not, just go forth and violate the Forum Guidelines no more, that's all it takes.

---

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Just a bare assertion on your part. Read the thread and respond with factual discourse. Stating as admin on an unmoderated thread that I am wrong when you do not actually address the facts on the thread strikes me as a bit desperate.Read the TO stuff I posted here. Mick makes a good point that there is no way a creationist or IDer would get away with posting such bunk here, and yet TO is often touted and defended here.Read Jar's website he recommends. It makes the same error. Evos here on EvC continually make the same error as well, and this basic fallacy underlies the oft repeated claim that "evolution" is demonstrated when in reality evolution as common descent (ToE) is not demonstrated by peppered moths, finches, etc, etc,....The simple fact is the claim you say I have not demonstrated has been amply demonstrated on this thread and remains unrefuted, and you have offered nothing but a bare assertion devoid of facts or heck, even argument.If you wish to make a claim, please back it up.Additionally, Showcase is an unmoderated forum, and so complaints even from an admin such as yourself about how I choose to make my points or that my language is overly provocative, insulting or whatever in your eyes really have no place here, according to your own rules.It's inappropiate for you to say the forum is to be self-moderated and then come on here and complain about something, and moreover, to do it in a false manner since the illogic claim is the OP and all the discussions on the thread to date have led to a general consensus that indeed this is fallacious. The only real question is to what extent this is indicative of the majority of evos or the underlying logic of ToE in general.If you have an on-topic comment, please contribute, preferably as percy and not admin.If you are changing the rules of Showcase to shut out debate, then don't grandstand about how somehow posts of mine here are outside of the rules. They are within the rules of Showcase you laid out, my friend. Edited by randman, : No reason given.Edited by randman, : No reason given.

I'm just trying to help you understand my position, but if you're not finding this helpful then I'm not interested in forcing unwanted information upon you. Since it is your wish, I'll leave you alone.

---

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I'd rather you back up your claims with more objective facts and argument instead of arguing from your own authority and insisting unsubstantiated opinion on your part is therefore true.

You also requested that you prefer I participate as Percy, but I'm not going to discuss moderation issues as Percy. If I participate as Percy then I could only discuss this topic, and this topic doesn't interest me.I'm not here to satisfy your every whim. You've already taken far more of my time than can be justified, but I did it in the hope that perhaps you might come to see the other side of the issue. If the evidence and argument I've provided thus far is not helpful in this regard then I don't really think continuing is going to be any more likely to be productive. It was with this in mind, that I would soon have to bring discussion with you to a close, that I indicated at the end of my Message 33 that it isn't necessary that you agree with me as long as you follow the Forum Guidelines from here on out. It's your choice.

---

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director