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Author Topic:   Is creationism science?
Reserve
Junior Member (Idle past 6206 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 03-29-2007


Message 76 of 114 (392456)
03-31-2007 3:20 PM


science
Many people misunderstand science, evolution, and creationism.
The misunderstanding is this: creationism is anti science, and evolution is science.
Science is the process that everyone can do.
Evolution and creationism are assumptions used in science to get interpretations.
For instance, creationists assumption is that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore can be used to correctly interpret the evidence around us.
Evolutionists assumption is that there is no God, everything can be explained using a materialistic explanation, mainly that: given enough time and chance, improbabilities become probable. So they explain the same evidence that creationists have in a different way.
Example:
World wide distribution of fossils:
Creationists - world wide catastrophe -> *look in bible* -> Noah's flood
evolutionists - *ignore Bible* - time, erosion and whatever processes that forms fossils. Also, fossils lower down in the strata are older -> sequence to how all life forms formed through mutations into other species. Lower species are generally "simpler".
Notice that Creationist and Evolutionists have the same evidence, BUT their interpretations are different. But both apply science to get their interpretations.

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 03-31-2007 3:50 PM Reserve has not replied
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Reserve
Junior Member (Idle past 6206 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 03-29-2007


Message 80 of 114 (392555)
04-01-2007 9:59 AM


Science
I stand corrected for the most part. Yes, I do understand that many Christians have embraced evolution as scientifically correct. However, I believe that a believe in evolution started with the rejection of the written Word of God. It was then when the theory of evolution became mainstream that some Christians were compelled to accept it as truth, and then came the tasks of fitting this theory with the Bible. It is too bad that one has to change the meaning of some plain and obvious texts, and twist it to make it fit with the current prevailing theory in science, the evolutionary theory.
From what I have read in literature, we have a lot to learn on the laws of physics, and we have a lot to discover yet. In the 20th century scientists thought that we were at the peak of knowledge concerning nature. This however is no longer the case. We are just starting to understand quantum physics and the many particles associated with it. Right now, it is hard for us to know how deep and how many more "fundamental" particles there might be. And this is the nature of science, continually searching and refining today's theories. The more we know, the better our understanding of the world around us.
For instance, we know that the speed of light is finite. If the universe is only a few thousand years old, then we should not be able to see any stars that are more than a few thousand light-years away. But we can.
by Chiroptera
It is true, however you are not familiar with how gravity and time dilation at the beginning of Creation can account for this. The theory proposed by Dr. Humphreys says that galaxies at the edge of the known universe is actually 14 billion years old, however, our galaxy and the earth is not. He came up with this theory by using todays laws of physics, but his assumption was that the universe has an edge and centre. Big Bang cosmology assumes no center and no edge and hence no gravity and time-dilation because everything is "smooth" at large distances.
Dr. Humphreys theory can be seen in the book "Starlight and Time".
I know that some responses from you will be to attack the author, but refrain from that, however, attack the theory.
Similarly, if the earth is only a few thousand years old, then reliable radiometric dates should indicate that no rock is more than a few thousand years old
Perhaps, but radiometric dating is still not fully understood in my opinion. We have yet to find more at the quantum level to see how this actually works. Currently we have no way to tell which atom will decay. As well, we do not know why the half life works the way it does. For instance, why does one atom decay very soon, and another will not decay for a billion years?
I understand that these questions do not provide reasons to doubt the dating method. However, there is current research being done to find out if radioactivity could have increased in the past (i.e. at creation, or during the flood). I am a firm believer that God exists, but also, that He gave us His Word, the Bible. And in my opinion, evolutionary theory is in direct conflict with the Bible, and despite many Christians trying to mold the two and the reasons they give forth, it is not sufficient in my opinion.
The evidence shows pretty clearly that the earth and the universe are billions of years old, that life has evolved over several billion years, and that there was no global flood
This is a bold statement and I have to claim this as utterly false. Currently, science HAS NO explanation on how life evolved. The chemical hurdles to try to explain how life evolved remains an obstacle. The design argument bashes evolution without a designer, however God using evolution still works with this observation. Evoltuionists have put forth many stories on how species could evolve, but no empirical evidence supports this. Story telling and speculation, but far from science. The natural selection process observed today coupled with mutations do not lead from single celled to complex multicellular organisms. BUT it does lead to different species and loss of function. Science observes the latter, not the former. No example in nature or in the lab will show how a lower life form can move up the ladder to more complex form using natural selection and unguided mutations. It only goes down hill, (even though it might benefit a species or a new species might come out of it, this is due to destruction of information or switching on/off of certain genes, but not a gain ).
As for the flood, I believe the global layers and fossils observed is direct evidence of a global flood. And what evidence shows clearly that there was no global flood? What about the moon? do you realize the surface closest to earth is more volcanic, and is more smooth due to the "lakes" of lava that flowed once in the past? Do you realize the far side of the moon is covered with small & large meteorite impacts making the surface rough relative with the close side of the moon? Think of this, and you will come to the conclusion that if all those meteorites came from space, they would hit the moon from any random direction and thus the moon would have an even surface all around. It DOESNT. The best, and I mean this, the best explanation is that an event happened on earth, so violent, that this is the only explanation of how the moon looks. (Perhaps the flood). This is explained in more detail in Walt Brown's "In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood".
So I would like to see examples of evolution happening today if there is one. Please refrain from using examples of natural selection or a loss of function which benefit a creature (this does not show a complexity gain required to explain how single celled organisms evolved into multicelled, and so on). Just because we can diversify certain species so much to an extent that they no longer sexually reproduce with one another, but only with a subset and therefore a new species has been made, this does not mean evolution (in a general context of moving up the ladder) has been observed. It could be, but one has to show the extra complexity gained by all these mutations and natural selection to show how life moved up the ladder in the first place.
Edited by Reserve, : Sentence was ambigious

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Chiroptera, posted 04-01-2007 10:34 AM Reserve has replied
 Message 83 by Coragyps, posted 04-01-2007 12:07 PM Reserve has not replied

  
Reserve
Junior Member (Idle past 6206 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 03-29-2007


Message 82 of 114 (392569)
04-01-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Chiroptera
04-01-2007 10:34 AM


Re: Science
Unless you understand the actual evidence and the reasoning why it is evidence, then your opinions are just opinions.
This makes no sense, I fully understand the actual evidence and the reasoning why it is evidence. Does this make it less of an opinion?
And how has Humphreys tested his theory against the standard Big Bang model? If he hasn't tested it, then he is making stuff up.
It seems you are not aware of all reasoning behind his theory, using your logic, I can dismiss any claim you have of the Big Bang or any cosmological theory as just an opinion and move on to the next. The only reason why I put this in there is because I realized you do not understand all the theories that creationists have. And thus your earlier post was not accurate.
However if you make a good point on a weakness of his theory, even if you do not fully understand or have a Phd in the area of astronomy, it should be a valid opinion to think about, to either improve the theory or reject it. Because not everyone can think of all the circumstances, and input from whoever has a good opinion whether negative or positive should be welcome.
But you didnt have a good point at all. So no progress can be made. Thanks for that.
And your opinion means what?
It means that radiometric dating is not fully understood by even the professionals. And this is my opinion, but is it a valid one? Think about it yourself, it is valid in certain ways, for not all aspects of radioactive decay are understood. Even though the general process of radioactive decay is.
So, again, you have not submitted something that I can build on, work with, or understand. Again, thanks for the post.
So it seems that you are given to bold statements yourself. Are your bold statements justified? How much do you know about the sciences that you are disputing? What is the evidence in favor of the standard scientific understanding, and what is the evidence against?
I don't disagree, I make bold statements in your eyes because I question the very foundation that you are putting your trust in (i.e. scientists interpretations that point to evolution). Likewise you make bold statements in my eyes because you question the foundations that I have put my trust in (i.e. the Bible).
To say that one needs to fully understand all aspects is to say that one has to be God and be omniscient. Which is stupid. Because why should I have to know everything on chemistry to believe in God. Likeiwse, why should you have to know everything on biology to believe in evoltuion? Fact is, you don't. Everyone has experience in certain fields while others have a general and less understanding of several fields. But in the end, it is you who interpret with what you know and come to a conclusion. Some people are more ignorant than others and this can be said for all sides, including Christians, evolutionists, OEC, etc. But I believe that all sides have people that are professional and have good opinions we can listen to and learn from. There is no need to say that because I do not have a Phd in any area, all my comments should be disregarded, because some of my comments can come from people who have Phd.
Besides, the general purpose is to answer questions that evolutionists or creationists have concerning the creation/evolution controversy. Including my opinion and yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Chiroptera, posted 04-01-2007 10:34 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Quetzal, posted 04-01-2007 12:13 PM Reserve has not replied
 Message 85 by Chiroptera, posted 04-01-2007 12:36 PM Reserve has not replied

  
Reserve
Junior Member (Idle past 6206 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 03-29-2007


Message 86 of 114 (392588)
04-01-2007 1:08 PM


Science
I know they would be very happy to discuss Humphrey's theories with you if you were interested in starting a thread in the Cosmology forum
Chiroptera
I believe confidence started in this thread:
http://EvC Forum: Starlight Within a Young Universe -->EvC Forum: Starlight Within a Young Universe
Not one single anomaly in all those years with my nose in the dirt.
Quetzal
I can't claim to have seen even one tiny fraction of the evidence in support of evolutionary theory.
So you haven't seen evidence in support of evolution, yet nothing is in conflict with evolution? Well, all this evidence is also in harmony with creationism.
As for some chemical hurdles for evolution to happen
chemical chirality
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis
polymerization problem
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis
Unless Jonathon Sarfati doesn't know what he is talking about.
as for the flood
All of geology since about 1815.
Coragyps
I think you meant to say "All of non-creationists geologists interpretations since 1815"
Do these failures in understanding cause you to question calendar dating?
I never questioned radioactive dating because we did not fully understand them. I did not say that anywhere. Besides the gravity comparison is not the same, since gravity is seen on a massive scale, and therefore knowledge about gravity at the atomic level will not change that. However, radioactive dating is done on a atomic level, and it is at the atomic level where other questions on dating lies.
The measurement of parent/daughter elements is not what I call into question, I understand that we can get those numbers very accurately. However these ratios do not mean dates. One must first call upon some assumptions before we can get dates. It is these assumptions that I do not fully agree with, not because I know better but because they question some of my beliefs that I am not yet willing to give up due to other supporting evidence that contradicts some of these conclusions.

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Chiroptera, posted 04-01-2007 1:28 PM Reserve has not replied
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