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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 696 (825523)
12-15-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
12-15-2017 3:14 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
quote:
You seem to be in line with the modern minimalist branch of scholarship, which tends to dismiss the study of ancient language and culture.
By which you appear to mean archaeologists who tend to prefer the evidence provided by archaeology over legends written long after the real events (if any) that underly them.
quote:
I find their approach and conclusions problematic
Well obviously you find any honest investigation that clashes with the Bible stories to be problematic.
quote:
There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen.
Then please produce some. Evidence of Israelites - or rather Canaanites who might be ancestors if the Israelites - in Egypt hardly counts. And that appears to be the main focus of Hoffmeiers book.

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 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 124 of 696 (825677)
12-17-2017 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by kbertsche
12-17-2017 8:08 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
From what I’ve seen Hoffmeier relies heavily on speculation, and admits he has no direct evidence.
As expected he draws on evidence of Canaanites in Egypt. But that is well-known and doesn’t even show that Israelites were present in any great numbers.
He uses images of prisoners of war - captured in raids - being made to work. But that doesn’t show that a large local population would be enslaved. The logistics are different.
If he can’t show that the Israelites were present in such numbers, or that they were enslaved or even made a mass exit (in itself noticeably reducing the population of Egypt), it’s hardly significant evidence for the Exodus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2017 8:08 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 9:39 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 696 (825681)
12-17-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
12-17-2017 9:47 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Myths and legends featuring Gods aren’t exactly uncommon. Why suppose that the Jew’s ancestors didn’t have them ? It shouldn’t be disturbing to conclude that they did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 9:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:06 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 129 of 696 (825684)
12-17-2017 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
12-17-2017 10:06 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
quote:
Because what disturbs me is that in all of these stories there should also be some glimpse into interaction with the God Who is...the One whom actually exists...the One whom believers believe in.
Should there be ? If it is primarily a story (whether based on real events or not) the story is going to conform to human ideas about God - and what makes a good story. That’s what people do.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 510 of 696 (828133)
02-11-2018 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
02-10-2018 8:11 PM


quote:
Aaa, this has been answered a million times already. There simply is no physical evidence left behind from a one-time miraculous event.
That would depend on the miracle. There is no reason why we could not have good evidence of a miraculous healing, for instance. All we would need are good medical records before and after confirming that something miraculous had happened.
As. I’ve said before prophecy should be a particularly easy case to prove. Instead we have believers declaring verses to be prophecies long after the supposed fulfilment and trying to cover up failures.
quote:
Or of course believe those who were and try to tell you about it in the teeth of your refusal to believe, which you won't no matter what they say, as this thread amply demonstrates
Miracle stories are common - especially in ancient documents. Demonstrated miracles are not. Only the gullible would trust in stories.
quote:
The argument is ridiculously futile. I believe the Bible witnesses, you don't and really, that's all there is to it.
But let us note that you are the one clinging to rationalisations. There is no good reason why there cannot be evidence of miracles. While it is harder for examples in the ancient past it is certainly possible. Even if we exclude predictive prophecy it is notable that we can’t track down the Plagues of Egypt, for instance in either history or archaeology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 02-10-2018 8:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 02-11-2018 10:13 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 512 of 696 (828135)
02-11-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Faith
02-11-2018 10:13 AM


quote:
Bible believers know what a prophecy is and have said so for millennia. Now we have unbelieving "scholars" coming along saying the believers are wrong because the scholars don't understand how Bible prophecy works, and besides they actually distort facts such as dates to "prove" their claims.
It’s not the scholars distorting dates. I guess it must be upsetting for you Bible believers to be told you’re wrong about the Bible. But if you react badly to it and reject the Bible as it actually is, that is really your problem.
quote:
Still true: I believe the Bible witnesses, many people here don't. That's all this is about in the end.
Even when the Bible witnesses aren’t actual witnesses. But you cannot reasonably condemn people for disagreeing with your opinion when you have such weak evidence. Getting angry at people for not sharing your biases is hardly productive - or even sensible.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 02-11-2018 10:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Faith, posted 02-11-2018 11:57 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 514 of 696 (828138)
02-11-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Faith
02-11-2018 11:57 AM


quote:
Two thousand years of Bible exegesis by believers trumps a couple hundred by debunkers.
Two thousand years of cumulative misinterpretation based on false assumptions doesn’t beat real scholarship. And that is what we are talking about.
quote:
And opinion is all you've got anyway, opinion about what the Bible really says etc. I hope you'll forgive us traditionalists if our opinion differs
You can have your ill-founded opinions. Just don’t get upset when people disagree - or try to make out it’s their fault.
quote:
And what a spin artist you are. I'm not angry or condemning anyone, just saying they are arrogantly wrong.
And thus you prove me right. Preferring evidence and reason over your beliefs is hardly being arrogant - and rather less likely to be wrong than you are.
[ABE] and let me remind you of the fact that the Bible really isn’t good evidence Message 1171.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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