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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 20 of 696 (823817)
11-17-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-17-2017 11:24 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
This is why the idea of evidence conflicts with the very definition of a miracle.
Not really. Without evidence we wouldn't know a miracle had happened would we? :-)
If a miracle cures an ill person we would expect at least two pieces of evidence; that the person was ill before the event and not ill after. Ideally, the event would be a woo-style intervention of some sort - the laying on of hands perhaps.
But so-called miracles never, ever involve something where a natural explanation is impossible and/or be objectively evaluated - a 'real' miracle. So in the case of miracle cures, an amputated arm never grows back, but back-ache can be easily cured.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-17-2017 11:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AlexCaledin, posted 12-13-2017 7:23 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-13-2017 10:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 696 (825346)
12-13-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
12-13-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
You could. In the context of evidence and knowledge being scientific, you cannot "know" that a miracle happened. Miracles are inexplicable, if you have evidence and knowledge then it's not a miracle.
If someone waved a wand and said 'hocus pocus, grow a second penis' and you instantly grew a second penis, you'd be pretty convinced that something miraculous had happened.
ie the evidence and knowledge of the miracle is that something inexplicable has happened in the natural world that we can observe.
If nothing observable or detectable happened, then we couldn't say a miracle had happened.
And if you witnessed the event but did not gather any record of the evidence, then you would be aware of the miracle occurring without having any evidence of it.
Then you would know the miracle happened and be without evidence.
Yup. And?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-13-2017 10:58 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 9:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 43 of 696 (825379)
12-14-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
12-14-2017 9:49 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
But that would be considered an unexplained natural phenomenon rather than a miracle.
It would be inexplicable not unexplained and it *would* be called miraculous. There's no escape from the definition of a miracle - to be miraculous it must be outside natural law.
quote:
an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature:
Of course the argument is rather hindered by the fact that miracles don't occur so we're left discussing hypotheticals. Still, turning wine into blood by talking at it would be a pretty good example of a repeatable and testable miracle.
When can you say a miracle has happened?
When something miraculous happens.
And so the answer to your question {Without evidence we wouldn't know a miracle had happened would we?} is that yes we could.
Well this gets more and more like Alice in Wonderland.
Your first attempt is to define miracles away by claiming that a miracle is simply something as yet unexplained. Then you do a 180 and infer that miracles *can* happen and what's more we don't even need any evidence of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 9:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 11:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 696 (825383)
12-14-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
12-14-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
You've misunderstood.
Nope, I disagreed.
You can't scientifically know that a miracle occurred.
Yes you can. You can observe and test the evidence. If it breaks natural laws it's a miracle.
If you can study it scientifically then its natural and if you can't then you don't know.
No, not by the definition of a miracle. You're just trying to define it away which is kind of sillier than the idea itself. To talk about miracles at all you have to accept the paradox.
But, you could witness a miracle and not have any scientific evidence for it.
Then you wouldn't know it was a miracle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 11:46 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 12:08 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-14-2017 12:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 48 of 696 (825387)
12-14-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
12-14-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
Nope, you could just be wrong about the natural law.
We know with 100% certainty that wine can't and never can be turned into blood by a guy in dress simply talking at it. That would be a miracle by any definition. And we can test it.
And if you can test it, then it's natural.
A miracle must happen in the natural world. Anything that happens in the natural world can be observed. If it can't be observed, we can't know anything has happened.
You have to accept the paradox. If you don't you're just saying that miracles can't happen.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 12:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 3:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 49 of 696 (825389)
12-14-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
12-14-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Ringo writes:
If something "breaks" natural law, we change our understanding of the natural law.
And when we discover that the something can not be explained by what we have a complete understanding of we call it a miracle.
We're not talking about quantum dynamics or dark matter, we're talking about an impossible event occurring in something we full understand. Wine can not be turned into blood by speaking at it. Or do you think it can?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-14-2017 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-14-2017 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 51 of 696 (825392)
12-14-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
12-14-2017 12:31 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Ringo writes:
If the observations don't fit our understanding, the first thing we question is the observations.
Of course.
Unless the observations can be verified, we have no business calling it a miracle.
Of course. This is why we've never seen a miracle. Oddly enough, the bleeding statues never get verification. But if they did, it would be called a miracle.
I think people can observe water turning into wine.
No they can't - water does not turn into wine. Nor wine to blood, as is claimed daily by Catholics.
I don't think we can make the leap from an isolated observation to a scientific fact OR a "miracle".
Neither do I.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-14-2017 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 10:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 696 (825405)
12-14-2017 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
12-14-2017 3:55 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
If that event happened and you tested it then that would mean that you weren't 100% certain that it couldn't happen.
An event that we figured couldn't happen would have to be tested before we could claim it happened at all.
And the response should not be to declare a miracle but to evaluate our understanding of what is possible.
To talk of miracles you have to imagine the impossible and suspend reality. We know wine can't turn into blood by a priest chanting a religious rune at it. We KNOW that. If it did turn we would be forced to declare it a miracle. It's not a matter of re-evaluating science, it would be a true supernatural event. We know enough about our world to know that what has happened is an impossibility. To deny that is non-scientific.
How do you know? They could be happening in other worlds.
I'm concerned with what is happening in the only world I or anyone else has knowledge of. Pickled onions could be kings and herrings queens on other worlds, but it seems a bit weird to worry ourselves overmuch about it here and now.
How do you know? There could be things happening that you can't observe.
Then no one is able to call them mirculous. (Or anything else.)
An unobservable event could cause an observable consequence, then you'd know something happened even though you couldn't observe it.
We would witness the miraculous event. The wine is chnged to blood. Who knows what caused it? It's a miracle.
What I'm saying is that it could happen and someone could be aware of it even though they don't have scientific evidence.
Which is supposedly the case for miracles in the bible. But as we have no objective evidence that the events described actually happened, we can't claim a miracle.
Also, if it can be tested it's not miraculous.
Non sequitur.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-14-2017 3:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 10:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 60 of 696 (825417)
12-14-2017 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-14-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
We're talking about something WITNESSED by people that doesn't happen to leave physical evidence. It's been witnessed, it happened, but despite that screamingly obvious fact it's getting declared nonexistent because you don't have physical remains to show for it?.
A story is not witness, it's a story. The stories in the bible have no evidential value.
Some physical events don't leave that kind of evidence, therefore you declare them nonexistent?
We declare them not proven.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 696 (825421)
12-14-2017 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
12-14-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
I'm sorry, the entire history of Chrsitianity says you're mistaken
Yes, it does. But it does it on unsupported and unsupportable claims. That's why Christianity is dying. It's based on unfounded beliefs and we're now capable of proving it.
because the accounts of miracles in the Bible are understood to be actual events witnessed by many people.
Only by belief, not by fact.
Others have been declaring them nonexistent, not just not proven.
If you're talking specifically about miraculous biblical events, I'm declaring them non-existant too. To start at the beginning, we've proven the dumb stories in Genesis plain wrong and we work forward from there.
But for sensible fair minded people the miracles of the Bible have definitely been proven.
Nonsense, only fundamental Christians believe that - a tiny fraction of the world's population.
That just creates two classes of people, though, doesn't it? The sensible fair minded people and the prejudiced self-deluded.
Correct.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 7:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 696 (825491)
12-15-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
12-15-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
No, it would be called something we can't explain.
A bleeding statue, water into wine, wine into blood would all be something we couldn't explain. The important point is that we know enough about basic science to know that these things are impossible; therefore miracle.
What people can observe has nothing to do with whether it can happen or not.
But it does have everything to do with whether we can know about it - and we're talking about what we can know, that wine turns to blood, here, today.
What people can observe has nothing to do with whether it can happen or not. People see things happening all the time that didn't happen. That's why eyewitness evidence is so unreliable.
"Observe" is not confined to casual witnesses evidence. It has a scientific meaning. It's what the entire edifice of science is built upon.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 696 (825506)
12-15-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
12-15-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
The important point is that if we know it's impossible, we also know it didn't happen - i.e. the observation must be wrong.
Hohum... It's the fact that the thing is impossible that makes it a miracle. It total bollocks but that's the paradox.
Attempts to replicate the observation fail. That's not a miracle; it's a mistake.
You have to start with the fact that the thing has been proven to happen - if you can't do that, then it ain't no miracle. That's how we know that transubstantiation is not a miracle - wine did not turn to blood. But if it ever did in a reproducible and testable manner it would be a miracle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 12:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 81 of 696 (825525)
12-15-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-15-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
A lot of the events in the Bible that are labeled "miracles" are not impossible: crossing the Red Sea, healing the sick, feeding the multitude, etc.[
They're all impossible in the way they're supposed to have been done.
If wine turned into blood in a reproducible and testable manner, it would not be a miracle. It would be a fact.
It would be an impossible fact.
It would be a process that we didn't understand before.
It would be an impossible process.
But enough, we both know what we mean and repetition is tedious.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 10:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 84 of 696 (825528)
12-15-2017 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
If it has happened then it wasn't impossible.
There's no point going beyond this because you're not accepting the concept of a miracle as it's defined. That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws.
If you can't do that, you're in a different debate.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 10:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:38 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 87 of 696 (825531)
12-15-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
12-15-2017 4:38 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle".
Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
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