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Author Topic:   Safety and Effectiveness of Herbs and Pharmaceuticals
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 209 (554800)
04-10-2010 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-02-2008 3:45 PM


Unfair definition
Percy writes:
Novella defines a drug as any "any chemical or combination of chemicals that has biological activity within the body above and beyond their purely nutritional value." By this definition an herb is a drug, and it is my position that the only measures that matter regarding drugs like herbs and pharmaceuticals are demonstrated safety and effectiveness.
Hi Percy. This definition is not an objective or fair one. It is skewed to the advantage of drug cartels so as to support government regulation of herbs as is currently being proposed, further empowering the drug cartels and severely affecting the producers of herbal products. These companys have been a significant factor in keeping my wife and I doctor free and not a drain on the overloaded health system for over 40 years.
Echinacea or astragalus , for example, either as as leaves or as compressed pills, are no more a drug than celery.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 01-02-2008 3:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Coragyps, posted 04-10-2010 9:33 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 114 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 9:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 209 (554852)
04-10-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 9:47 AM


Re: Unfair definition
Granny Magda writes:
So marijuana is not a drug? Opium is not a drug? Peyote is not a drug?
Have I understood you right? If not, why not?
These examples are pretty much strawmen relative to my point. They have been deemed exclusively illegal by government due to the danger they pose to the people. The majority of naturals sold in the health stores pose no health risk. For the most part, the only side effects are positive whereas the majority of pharms have a list of negative side effects all of the way up to death. Regulation is all about money, power and control.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 9:47 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Taq, posted 04-10-2010 3:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 130 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 7:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 209 (554860)
04-10-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Coragyps
04-10-2010 9:33 AM


Re: Unfair definition
Coragyps writes:
So what are you saying here, Buz? That they do no more for your health than celery does? Or that they contain only all-natural ingredients but none of those nasty chemicals!!1!?
Perhaps you should reread me, Coragyps. I said they've been a significant factor in keeping my wife and I MD free for 40 years. Celery, good, but having different properties than others. The designer has apparently designed a wide variety of herbs for a variety of remedies.
In Psalms 104 we read of all of the things that Jehovah has created, including the herbs (verse 14) "for the service of man that he may bring forth food out of the earth." As Oil, and other fluids service the automobile, so the herbs service man in order that both may fully function efficiently.
Coragyps writes:
Atropine or scopolamine that I can make in my lab is identically as potent and dangerous as that you can get from Jimsonweed. The ONLY difference is that the Jimsonweed synthesizes it in plant cells, and I would do it in expensive flasks or in discarded Mason jars.
There has been no evidence of any potency of any dangerous herbs being sold in the health stores across the nation, whereas the majority of pharms prescribed have some possible harmful side effects, due to the fact that they are largly manufactured compounds of chemicals and/or reconstituted plant compounds, un-natural to human consumption.
I've said the above to say that there are minerals and some tested chemicals which have no detrimental effects on the body. For this reason, Dr. Whitaker, MD, having five MDs on his staff operates an integrated health center, Wellness Center, the largest in the naiton where he integrates an occasional drugs into treatments which are largely holistic, involving diet, exercise, oxygen chambers, fasts, herbs and minerals, etc. I believe he is in Ventura, Ca.
He has effectively treated many terminal or otherwise incurable diseases for many thousands of Americans. One of these happens to be my daughter-in-law's mother, a career hospital nurse who had arthritis so bad that she was beginning to loose the use of her arms, etc. My wife apprised her of Dr Whitaker's clinic where she was helped to the extent that she once again has full function of here arms and feels better holistically over her whole body. She's just one example. I could cited many.
After a sick free winter my body recently underwent a spring cleaning. Without any drugs or MD visits, I began a cleansing process, including fasting, application of herbs, stringent diet, lots of water, etc. It makes one feel miserable for a day or two as the mucus and toxins are flushed to the surface but works to invigorate and strengthen the immune system etc. It takes me a while for the coughing and blowing of mucus from head and lungs to subside. This diminishes as the cleansing is accomplished. The nice part is good side effects upon the whole body.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Coragyps, posted 04-10-2010 9:33 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Coragyps, posted 04-10-2010 4:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 209 (554873)
04-10-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Taq
04-10-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Unfair definition
Taq writes:
Can you please cite the clinical trials that support this claim? If no clinical, scientific studies exist then how can you make these claims?
Also, if natural medications are not effective in treating illness then who cares if they don't have any side effects. You need to show that they are effective and have fewer side effects compared to a comparable pharm product in clinical trials if you are going to make these claims.
No clenical study would be required in order to assertain the health benefits of garlic, rose hips, brussel sprout, cilantro, parsley, magnesium, calcium, zinc, various sprouts, fish and other essential oils, etc. The knowledge regarding the beneficial benefits of these and other naturals has been widespread over the millenia of human history.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Taq, posted 04-10-2010 3:39 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 04-10-2010 5:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 209 (554922)
04-10-2010 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Taq
04-10-2010 5:37 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Taq writes:
With "natural remedies" you have the company running everything without any independent fact checking. This leads to false claims, unneeded risk to the patient, and outright fraud. There is every reason in the world to bring natural remedies under the same rules that we have for pharmaceuticals.
When you begin reading about the maimed and dead due to the naturals as is the case with the pharms, then you have reason for government oversight and regulation. Otherwise you're advocating even more big expensive government bureaucratic costly harassment on the naturals than they are already encountering to the detriment of us, their satisfied and benefited customers.
We who apply the naturals significantly reduce the need to apply the overloaded healthcare system's public funded services. At age 74, thanks to the naturals, neither my wife or I have once used any form of medicare or medicaid.
We are loosing our freedoms and tax depleted earnings, one law at a time. A caged bird is safely caged, managed and fed by it's owner but has no freedom. An uncaged, unmanaged and unowned bird's safety is at risk but it's free to go where, eat and do what it pleases. Freedom necessarily involves an element of risk. Compared to the pharms the naturals pose relatively insignificant risk.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Taq, posted 04-10-2010 5:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 9:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 140 by Coragyps, posted 04-11-2010 11:28 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 04-11-2010 2:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 209 (554925)
04-10-2010 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 8:03 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Granny Magda writes:
His site still makes unsubstantiated claims about products like coconut oil. It doesn't really matter if he has been forced to make the appropriate changes. One offence I could overlook, but twice shows that he doesn't really care whether he meets the FDA standards or not. His open hostility towards such standards is all over his site. I find that pretty damning. I can't help but suspect that Mercola is against the FDA because he is the exact type of charlatan that the FDA is there to guard against.
My wife loves Dr Mercola's wonderful body butter. It's ingredients are so safe that it is great for baby's skin and if it were accidently ingested, would pose no health risk. Not so with most body creams.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 8:03 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 10:07 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 142 by Taq, posted 04-11-2010 2:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 209 (554927)
04-10-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Granny Magda
02-18-2010 10:58 PM


Re: Chinese Medicine Cancer Scandal
LoL, Granny, Dr Wu sold a banned chemical. She broke the law! This one isolated incident is all over the internet, whereas lawful doc administered harmful pharms are maiming and killing people by the thousands each and every year.
This isolated example, in fact, involves no herbal product. Had Dr Wu stuck to the naturals as nearly all wholistic docs do, there would've been no problem.
Btw, your link does not work. I found the site source by search.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Granny Magda, posted 02-18-2010 10:58 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 209 (554928)
04-10-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 10:07 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Granny Magda writes:
All drugs should be treated the same; trialled as thoroughly as possible for safety and efficacy, whether herbal or otherwise. I don't think that most herbal medics have risen to this challenge.
Did you read my response to Percy's OP on the last page relative to the fact that herbs are not one and the same as pharma drugs by definition and should not be lumped with parma drugs
The natural food suppliment industry will, for the most part, go belly up if regulated, due to the fact that the powerful pharms, in bed with the government and loaded with dough will obliviate them. Government mandated regulations will bankrupt them and make their products too costly to produce. Are you sure that's what you want, Granny?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 10:07 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 11:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 209 (554979)
04-11-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 11:45 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Contents deleted for additional study.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 11:45 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 209 (555104)
04-12-2010 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Coragyps
04-11-2010 11:28 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Coragyps writes:
I have anecdotes, too, Buz. Lidia was a good friend of my wife's who was an Herbalife saleswoman. She treated the lump in her breast with the stuff that Herbalife sells, and with prayer, until it was Stage 4. She died last year at 45 years of age.
If people don't mention that they take "naturals," it's a little harder to write about the ones that die from them, particularly when they die from the baseless hope that they can fix a serious ailment like cancer with some flower buds that haven't had even rudimentary quality control run on their potency. Dead from false hope is just as dead as dead from some rare side effect.
Lol, Coragyps. Treating breast cancer with herbalife and prayer is nowhere advocated by any sensible wholistic health regime. That would be like elephant hunting with a bebe gun. A far more aggressive program, including a stringent diet, and MD wholistic health practitioner guided protocol would be the way to go.
The reason, imo, that God does not, more often, heal cancer is that he knows that unless one changes one's diet and lifestyle which causes cancer, if healed one will just keep doing what caused the cancer in the first place.
There are holistic alternative cancer clenics, both in and out of the US which apply alternative methodology for cancer treatment.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Coragyps, posted 04-11-2010 11:28 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 04-12-2010 6:11 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 146 by Coragyps, posted 04-12-2010 6:31 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 147 by Coragyps, posted 04-12-2010 6:32 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-12-2010 7:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 209 (555283)
04-12-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
04-12-2010 7:27 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Taq writes:
Cancer is unavoidable.
All I can say to you is read up on the websites on causes of cancer and avoiding cancer. Some remote cultures like Eskimoes or cultures remote in the Himalayas, etc who eat no processed foods have in the past, been pretty much cancer free.
Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling error

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-12-2010 7:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Kitsune, posted 04-13-2010 7:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 153 by Wounded King, posted 04-13-2010 8:39 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 9:25 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 209 (555348)
04-13-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Coragyps
04-12-2010 6:31 PM


Re: Herbalife Claims
Coragyps writes:
I'm sure it isn't. But the herbal woo goddam sure sucked Lidia in and killed her.
And it's "holistic." Or, most of the time, "quackery."
Likely your Lidia got some miss-information or poor advice from someone. I don't think Herbalife would be so stupid as to claim their products cure cancer. Can you cite evidence otherwise?
No alternative suppliments are a silver bullet for cancer. Going at it naturally would require a very stringent and well guided regimen. Also, it depends on how advanced the cancer was before beginning any program. There comes a point where nothing outside of a miracle will be able to bring remission or cure.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Coragyps, posted 04-12-2010 6:31 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 209 (555388)
04-13-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Wounded King
04-13-2010 8:39 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Wounded King writes:
At lest in the case of the Inuit this is also a population with previously generally low life expectancies. That isn't to suggest that the large changes in Inuit lifestyles in the modern era haven't contributed significantly to cance incidence. But to ascribe it all to processed foods is facile and overlooks other major causative factors that are well established, such as smoking, exercise, other dietary factors, patterns of childbirth and breastfeeding, seems naive.
Nobody's ascribing life expectancy and/or cancer to diet alone. The point has been that diet is a significant factor. Health regimes applied by practitioners, of course, include other than diet, including abstinence from harmful habits and other healthful aspects of lifestyle.
Much to do with long life expectancy in America is medicine's ability to keep people alive, abbeit with very poor quality including nursing homes, feeding tubes, heart devices, transplants, stomach bags, oxygen tanks, etc. Were it not for these life props, life expectancy in America would be significantly lower.
Holistic methodology which treats the whole body affords a better quality of life and it keeps folks like me and my family free from burdening the already overloaded public funded healthcare services. My wife and I pay about $3000 a year of our meager social security benefits to pay premiums on medicare which we may never use aside from an accidental injury whereas obese folks who thrive on junk food and smoke etc invariably eventually drain the system due to their lifestyle. These public funded healthcare leaches are often the loudest skeptics who pshaw alternatives as quakery.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Wounded King, posted 04-13-2010 8:39 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 209 (555390)
04-13-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Taq
04-13-2010 9:25 AM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Taq writes:
Some of my colleagues research cancer. I read the primary lit., you know, that sciency stuff. Cancer is unavoidable. It is only a matter of time before you have enough mutations in a minimum number of oncogenes.
There are research cancer colleages who are in the system which finds it more profitable to look for cures than to find them. Likely your colleages are of that mindset, some wittingly or unwittingly due to what's programmed into their thinking from the med schools who's foundations are largely funded by the rich pharma fatcats.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 9:25 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 12:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 209 (555449)
04-13-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Taq
04-13-2010 12:00 PM


Re: FDA - Cancer Research
Taq writes:
So you are saying that scientists are discovering cancer cures and throwing them out the window? Really? Have any evidence to back this up?
The research and study grants go primarily to the pharms industry. For decades, the AMA and the American Cancer Society, etc have, year after year collected millions upon millions searching for this or that silver bullets to pop at cancer, while the alternative wholistic clenics quietly go at the whole body's systemic problems with detoxifying and building up the body's immune functions etc. Many of the patients who end up in the holistic places were given up on by the medical docs so they finally go to as a last resort to the people who can often actually help them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 04-13-2010 12:00 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Theodoric, posted 04-13-2010 5:31 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 160 by DrJones*, posted 04-13-2010 5:38 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
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