The Religious Nature of Evolution, or Lack Thereof

almeyda No,it does not. It does require thinking on your part to establish what you propose is occuring.The hypothesis does not reqire you to believe in it,however,it does require that you actively pursue evidence to show that your hypothesis has merit.If no evidence can be found to back it up then it can be considered as invalid.If you can let go of it when no evidence is forth coming then how can we say it requires faith? Faith is the maintenance of a position regardless of the lack of evidence.

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"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

almeyda Which creationists showed you and just exactly what did they show you? It is fine by me if you wish to ignore the evidence but please do not simply give up because you do not understand how to differentiate between sides of an arguenment. Please,by all means, allow us to view the problems that you have been shown. We will do all we can to show you how to judge for yourself based upon understanding how scientists arrive at the conclusions they do.This message has been edited by sidelined, 05-27-2004 11:36 PM

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

AsgaraYou are probably right but I myself can relate to the confusion that is present in his understanding since I myself up until a decade ago was not so different in my perception of science as being unfathomable.I blame the drugs and a fatal attraction to the outdoors.LOLP.S. Thanks for help with the link earlier.This message has been edited by sidelined, 05-27-2004 11:46 PM

almeydaI have listened to the audio tape and I see now where the confusion you have is. This Ken Hamm is obviously unaware of how science works and what makes it such a powerful tool. Yes assumptions are made in science but Ken seems to think that that is a weakness. What he doesn't mention is that we all make assumptions all the time including him. As he mentions with dating methods no one was there in order to see things actually progress. This is not necessary since science is not,nor has ever been,about ascertaining absolute certainty.Science makes assumptions and then tests them against the world we are trying to understand.
Let me ask you a question. When you lift a heavy item how do you think this is possible? What process is involved in the body that allows you to do so? Now ask yourself how you came to that conclusion and tell me what assumptions you had to make in order to arrive at that conclusion.
We will continue this post by post and in the process I will show you how things are not always as they seem. Okay by you?This message has been edited by sidelined, 05-29-2004 11:58 AM

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

almeydaFrom the AIG website. Now that we have effectively eliminated the big bang,{not really, I know} we now must ask what do creationists do since if this is correct then their model of 6000 years is also eliminated.

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

almeyda Evolution is accepted because it not only explains the evidence we collect and observe it also allows us to show what we could find that would allow us to disprove it. Try as we might we have not yet been successful.This is what allows science to triumph in explaining the natural world. Do not accept the arguement presented, try to find the chink in its armour. Scientists do that to theories all the time. They question,they experiment,they test a theory's predictions and this is why science is so succesful.
The best mind's in their fields scrutinize it on a daily and even hourly basis.If you think creationists are tough on models of nature put together by scientists that is NOTHING compared to the barrage of withering criticism that scientists heap upon their fellow scientists.It is not simply a matter of weeding out the poor ideas but it also sharpens up the rigour that goes into scientific investigation.
You can take any science and spend years upon years of painstakingly hard mental work and it can all be blown to hell with one simple experiment that falsifies the conclusion it presented.Take physics, the science that has the greatest level of actual understanding and check out the cutting edge of its investigations.
If you do not have a HUGE command of mathematics as well as an great dose of imagination AND understand the leading edge research AND can present a new way of viewing the world that is groundbreaking ,holds up under scrutiny AND is consistent with everything that is already known to be factual you have no business being there. These are mental giants not run of the mill science educators.
I guarantee you can take a year of your life and just begin to scratch the surface of modern scientific knowledge and be humbled BIG TIME.However I highly recommend it for it gives a level of satisfaction that is not matched by many other human activities. If you want a quick taste try this website:
http://www.explorepdx.com/feynman.htmlThat is 2 websites I have recommended you to check. The choice is yours.I guarantee you it is a source of wonder and beauty.Take care big guy. May the road rise to meet your feet.

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

almeyda Why would you believe that? People live the way they want to live in a democracy because people should be allowed the freedom to do what they want within the agreed limitations of society as a whole.If I want to eat pork or ski on sunday or not pay homage to the sun god Ra that is rightfully my choice as long as I do not demand that others follow me because I feel I am right.
You have the right under the laws of the land to worship whatever deity you wish. You do not have the right to demand that the rest of the world do so. I am an atheist for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with the fact that evolution exists. People are not indoctrinated into atheism through the teaching of evolution. Evolution simply describes what we see happening in the real world. If you have a problem with that and you are christian take it up with your god.Philosophy has nothing to do with evolution being the way the natural world operates.Of course,it must influence the way in which people view the world and if peoples views are inconsistent with how the world operates that is becuase their view is somehow incomplete.
We must teach science the way we do because that is how we progress in our knowledge and understanding of the world. Modern medicine and all the medications we have that alleviate suffering and allow for better lives is a result of our understanding of evolution. The fact that we have anti-bacterial resistant strains is a result of our not paying attention to evoltionary facts in the general population at large.Now we are faced with huge threats from these resistant strains and in order to defend our selves from these we must use the same understanding of evolutionary processes in oder to combat them. It was not the facts that changed but,rather,our models of those facts. This is perfectly correct since as we gain more information and study more diligently we necessarily gain better understanding that allow us to constuct better models of how the world operates.This is only a problem if you insist on the world conforming to your beliefs rather than listening to what the world itself has to say about it. That is simply a false statement.Creation science falls under the weight of its own inability to explain because it does not explain but rather staes simply that God Did It!
Let me give you examples.Find for me,if you can,the creationist explanation of Heisenburgs uncertainty principle.Or the Pauli exclusion principle.How about the second law of thermodynamics.These have far moreserious consequences for the view that the world was created than the thoery of evolution.Let me know when you find their equivalents in creation science would you?

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

almeydaLOL you are a tough nut I will give you that.I fully appreciate that you relate to the idea of a God and the warmth that ensues from imagining that you are special. And that after the long run of what may or may not be a hard life you shall at last recieve a chance to bask in that warmth, all your sacrifices rewarded.That is fine for you, I wish you well.
However,there are those among us who have faced the abyss of life and stared long and hard into it and,for myself, came away convinced of quite the opposite. I cannot share in your conviction and that is the choice I make.Perhaps I have just witnessed one too many horrors that I could not resolve into the framework you believe.Regardless I shall not offer more of my time to you nor shall I try to place offerings of help to clarify what are distinctly muddy waters that you trudge through.Take care.This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-01-2004 05:58 PM

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "