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Author Topic:   The Religious Nature of Evolution, or Lack Thereof
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 212 (113703)
06-08-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by mike the wiz
06-08-2004 9:56 PM


Re: Great question
Yes, Hitler most certainly did. But when we also try to distort history by saying he was not a Christian, we too are distorting the evidence. If we are going to try to honestly evaluate reality, then it has to be across the board. We cannot ignore evidence just because we don't like what the evidence shows.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by mike the wiz, posted 06-08-2004 9:56 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2004 6:33 AM jar has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 212 (114045)
06-10-2004 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
06-08-2004 9:28 PM


Re: Hitler a Christian? Oh the lies that people will believe.
jar writes:
A lot of Christians like to pretend that Hitler was not a Christian. Sorry, he was. Trying to say otherwise is just another example of Christians being able to close their eyes to the TRUTH. It's sad. It's like all of the machinations they go through to find phony prophecies, the amazing bending and contortions they go through to believe in Creation, the Flood, the Boat that didn't Float, the Exodus and so many other things.
Unfortunately, reality is that Christians have done very bad things.
darkstar writes:
A lot of Evolutionists like to pretend that Hitler was not a Evolutionist. Sorry, he was. Trying to say otherwise is just another example of Evolutionists being able to close their eyes to the TRUTH. It's sad. It's like all of the machinations they go through to find phony evidence, the amazing bending and contortions they go through to believe in Evolution, the Fossils, the Beginning that doesn't matter, the Evidence that doesn't exist, and so many other things.
Unfortunately, reality is that Evolutionists have done very bad things.
Now see how easy that was. Change a few of words in your paragraph and it suddenly flips upside down. Hitler was no closer to being a christian than he was to being an evolutionist. He was definitely a homicidal maniac, but he was no christian and he was no evolutionist.
You really should stop forcing me to stick up for the creationists/id'ers and allow this thread to get back on topic.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 06-08-2004 9:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 06-10-2004 12:34 AM DarkStar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 168 of 212 (114047)
06-10-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by DarkStar
06-10-2004 12:31 AM


Re: Hitler a Christian? Oh the lies that people will believe.
You'd like to believe that. Too bad Hitler said he was a Christian. He did not say he was an Evolutionist.
You can deny reality, but reality does not change.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 12:31 AM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:21 AM jar has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 212 (114061)
06-10-2004 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
06-10-2004 12:34 AM


Re: Hitler a Christian? Oh the lies that people will believe.
jar writes:
You can deny reality, but reality does not change.
Boy, aint' that the truth!
THERE are some truths which are so obvious that for this very reason they are not seen or at least not recognized by ordinary people. They sometimes pass by such truisms as though blind and are most astonished when someone suddenly discovers what everyone really ought to know. Columbus's eggs lie around by the hundreds of thousands, but Columbuses are met with less frequently.
Thus men without exception wander about in the garden of Nature; they imagine that they know practically everything and yet with few exceptions pass blindly by one of the most patent principles of Nature's rule: the inner segregation of the species of all living beings on this earth.
Even the most superficial observation shows that Nature's restricted form of propagation and increase is an almost rigid basic law of all the innumerable forms of expression of her vital urge. Every animal mates only with a member of the same species. The titmouse seeks the titmouse, the finch the finch, the stork the stork, the field mouse the field mouse, the dormouse the dormouse, the wolf the she-wolf, etc.
Only unusual circumstances can change this, primarily the compulsion of captivity or any other cause that makes it impossible to mate within the same species. But then Nature begins to resist this with all possible means, and her most visible protest consists either in refusing further capacity for propagation to bastards or in limiting the fertility of later offspring; in most cases, however, she takes away the power of resistance to disease or hostile attacks.
This is only too natural.
.....It is idle to argue which race or races were the original representative of human culture and hence the real founders of all that we sum up under the word 'humanity.' It is simpler to raise this question with regard to the present, and here an easy, clear answer results. All the human culture, all the results of art, science, and technology that we see before us today, are almost exclusively the creative product of the Aryan. This very fact admits of the not unfounded inference that he alone was the founder of all higher humanity, therefore representing the prototype of all that we understand by the word 'man.' He is the Prometheus of mankind from whose bright forehead the divine spark of genius has sprung at all times, forever kindling anew that fire of knowledge which illumined the night of silent mysteries and thus caused man to climb the path to mastery over the other beings of this earth. Exclude him - and perhaps after a few thousand years darkness will again descend on the earth, human culture will pass, and the world turn to a desert.
Adolf Hitler \ Mein Kampf
Sure sounds like evolutionary thinking to me, but then Hitler also said.....
Tell a lie loud enough, long enough and often enough and people will believe it.
____________________ Adolph Hitler
I guess you bought into that one as well. Hook, Line, and Sinker!
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 06-10-2004 12:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2004 1:32 AM DarkStar has replied
 Message 173 by jar, posted 06-10-2004 11:28 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 175 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2004 2:15 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 170 of 212 (114065)
06-10-2004 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by DarkStar
06-10-2004 1:21 AM


Ah, right. Here we go again - DarkStar is the authority, of course, on who is and is not a Christian. He feels that he can, like Carnac the Magnificent, look into the hearts of men and ascertain their exact religous affiliation, regardless of the subject's stated religious preference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:21 AM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:52 AM crashfrog has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 212 (114079)
06-10-2004 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by crashfrog
06-10-2004 1:32 AM


Be nice!
Don't get sore at me just because you can't accept the obvious!
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2004 1:32 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2004 2:06 AM DarkStar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 172 of 212 (114082)
06-10-2004 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by DarkStar
06-10-2004 1:52 AM


Don't get sore at me just because you can't accept the obvious!
You meant that you don't have any idea about what you're talking about, most of the time?
Why would I have any difficulty accepting that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:52 AM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by DarkStar, posted 06-11-2004 2:34 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 212 (114137)
06-10-2004 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by DarkStar
06-10-2004 1:21 AM


Re: Hitler a Evolutionist? Oh the lies that people will believe.
I'm glad that you brought those up as it gives me a chance to point out some of the very serious problems common to the way Creationists view the world. It's possible to quote mine just about any body of work and find things that can be twisted to make them seem to support most any position.
When it comes to evidence though that is discomforting, to evidence that challenges a strongly held belief, Creationists tend to shut their eyes and simply shudder.
You have been out quote mining, and found passages where you believe you can show that Hitler was an Evolutionist. You then presented those passages as proof that Hitler was NOT a Christian. That is not the way that the world works.
First, I don’t believe that you bothered to read the passages that you quoted but instead simply cut & pasted them from some other site. If you had, you might have selected other more appropriate ones.
The passages you quote, for example...
Even the most superficial observation shows that Nature's restricted form of propagation and increase is an almost rigid basic law of all the innumerable forms of expression of her vital urge. Every animal mates only with a member of the same species. The titmouse seeks the titmouse, the finch the finch, the stork the stork, the field mouse the field mouse, the dormouse the dormouse, the wolf the she-wolf, etc.
are not reflective of Evolutionists but rather more of the Creationists Kind begets Kind.
Second, even if Hitler DID follow Darwin and was an Evolutionist (and so far no one has presented anything that even implies that he believed in Evolution), that does not preclude him being a Christian.
One the other hand, Hitler said time and again, clearly, plainly and such that NO twisting or interpretation is needed, that he was a Christian and that he was doing God's work. He said time and again that Nazi Germany was a Christian State. There is no honest way to doubt or question that Hitler was a Christian any more than one could doubt Evolution.
From Mein Kampf...
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
That is a pretty clear statement. There is no interpretation needed. It can not be missunderstood. There cannot be two mutually exclusive readings of it.
Hitler says he is a Christian.
Hitler was a madman. But he was a Christian madman. To say otherwise is to distort and deny the truth. Unfortunately, just as with Evolution, many Christians seem to have no problems doing so.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:21 AM DarkStar has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 212 (114165)
06-10-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by DarkStar
06-08-2004 9:04 PM


Re: Hitler a Christian? Oh the lies that people will believe.
DarkStar,
And he wasn't a true evolutionist either. Within evolution, it is the environment that decides who are the best fit, not personal discrimination. Also, whether or not a subpopulation dies off is due to the environment as well, not forced internment camp. If Hitler believed in evolution and believed that the Jews were substandard, then the death camps were entirely not needed since the environment would have selected against them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by DarkStar, posted 06-08-2004 9:04 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 212 (114167)
06-10-2004 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by DarkStar
06-10-2004 1:21 AM


Re: Hitler a Christian? Oh the lies that people will believe.
Jar is right -- there is nothing in this passage that indicates an acceptance of any kind of evolutionary theory.
Darkstar, can you quote some part of this passage and interpret it for us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by DarkStar, posted 06-10-2004 1:21 AM DarkStar has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 212 (114344)
06-11-2004 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by crashfrog
06-10-2004 2:06 AM


ribbit, ribbit
Ok, froggy, if you say so.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2004 2:06 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 212 (117344)
06-21-2004 10:28 PM


Adding Fuel To The Fire
THOUGHTS ON EVOLUTION FROM SCIENTISTS AND INTELLECTUALS
In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it."
H. J. Lipson, F.R.S. "A physicist looks at evolution" Physics Bulletin, vol 31, 1980
"Another reason that scientists are so prone to throw the baby out with the bath water is that science itself, as I have suggested, is a religion. The neophyte scientist, recently come or converted to the world view of science, can be every bit as fanatical as a Christian crusader or a soldier of Allah. This is particularly the case when we have come to science from a culture and home in which belief in God is firmly associated with ignorance, superstition, rigidity and hypocrisy. Then we have emotional as well as intellectual motives to smash the idols of primitive faith. A mark of maturity in scientists, however, is their awareness that science may be as subject to dogmatism as any other religion."
Peck, M. Scott [psychiatrist and Medical Director of New Milford Hospital Mental Health Clinic, Connecticut, USA], "The Road Less Travelled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth," [1978], Arrow: London, 1990, p.238.
"Evolution is the creation-myth of our age. By telling us our origin it shapes our views of what we are. It influences not just our thought, but our feelings and actions too, in a way which goes far beyond its official function as a biological theory."
Midgley, Mary [former Senior Lecturer in Philosophy, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK], "The Religion of Evolution," in Durant J., ed., "Darwinism and Divinity: Essays on Evolution and Religious Belief," Basil Blackwell: Oxford UK, 1985, p.154.
"In fact the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that if the facts won't fit in, why so much the worse for the facts is my feeling."
Erasmus Darwin, in a letter to his brother Charles, after reading his new book, "The Origin of Species," in Darwin, F., ed., "The Life of Charles Darwin," [1902], Senate: London, 1995, reprint, p215.
"There was little doubt that the star intellectual turn of last week's British Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Salford was Dr John Durant, a youthful lecturer from University College Swansea. Giving the Darwin lecture to one of the biggest audiences of the week, Durant put forward an audacious theory-that Darwin's evolutionary explanation of the origins of man has been transformed into a modern myth, to the detriment of science and social progress. Durant said that scientists and popularisers have asked too much of the theory of evolution, demanding that it explain... "Life, the Universe, and Everything". As a result Darwin's theory has burst at the seams, leaving a wreckage of distorted and mutilated ideas, and man's understanding of his society has been hobbled by his inability to escape the conservative myths he has created. Durant bemoaned the transformation of evolutionary ideas into "secular or scientific myths". ... they have assumed the social role of myths-legends about remote ancestors that express and reinforce peoples' ideas about the society around them. "Like the creation myths which have so largely replaced, theories of human evolution are basically stories about the first appearance of man on Earth and the institution of human society," said Durant. ... Durant concludes that the secular myths of evolution have had "a damaging effect on scientific research", leading to "distortion, to needless controversy, and to the gross misuse of science".
"How evolution became a scientific myth," New Scientist, 11 September 1980, p.765.
"Darwinian theory is the creation myth of our culture. It's the officially sponsored, government financed creation myth that the public is supposed to believe in, and that creates the evolutionary scientists as the priesthood... So we have the priesthood of naturalism, which has great cultural authority, and of course has to protect its mystery that gives it that authority---that's why they're so vicious towards critics."
Phillip Johnson, On the PBS documentary "In the Beginning: The Creationist Controversy" [May 1995]
"It is no more heretical to say the Universe displays purpose, as Hoyle has done, than to say that it is pointless, as Steven Weinberg has done. Both statements are metaphysical and outside science. Yet it seems that scientists are permitted by their own colleagues to say metaphysical things about lack of purpose and not the reverse. This suggests to me that science, in allowing this metaphysical notion, sees itself as religion and presumably as an atheistic religion (if you can have such a thing)."
Shallis, Michael [Astrophysicist, Oxford University], "In the eye of a storm", New Scientist, January 19, 1984, pp.42-43.
"Unfortunately many scientists and non-scientists have made Evolution into a religion, something to be defended against infidels. In my experience, many students of biology - professors and textbook writers included - have been so carried away with the arguments for Evolution that they neglect to question it. They preach it ... College students, having gone through such a closed system of education, themselves become teachers, entering high schools to continue the process, using textbooks written by former classmates or professors. High standards of scholarship and teaching break down. Propaganda and the pursuit of power replace the pursuit knowledge. Education becomes a fraud."
George Kocan, Evolution isn't Faith But Theory, Chicago Tribune, Monday, April 21, 1980.
At this point, it is necessary to reveal a little inside information about how scientists work, something the textbooks don't usually tell you. The fact is that scientists are not really as objective and dispassionate in their work as they would like you to think. Most scientists first get their ideas about how the world works not through rigorously logical processes but through hunches and wild guesses. As individuals they often come to believe something to be true long before they assemble the hard evidence that will convince somebody else that it is. Motivated by faith in his own ideas and a desire for acceptance by his peers, a scientist will labor for years knowing in his heart that his theory is correct but devising experiment after experiment whose results he hopes will support his position.
Boyce Rensberger, How the World Works, William Morrow, NY, 1986, pp. 17—18. Rensberger is an ardently anti-creationist science writer.
"Thus, a century ago, [it was] Darwinism against Christian orthodoxy. To-day the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with religious fervour, and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith."
Grene, Marjorie [Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, University of California, Davis], "The Faith of Darwinism," Encounter, Vol. 74, November 1959, pp.48-56, p.49

All quotes available at the following site. http://www.naturalselection.0catch.com/...romscientists.html
NOTICE: THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER IS LISTED AT THE ABOVE SITE!
The truth is that scientists have very few solid examples of evolution in action where new functions are actually produced. The few examples that they do have seem to show some interesting limits in evolutionary potential. Often such observations are bent, molded or exaggerated to fit some a priori assumptions that do not truly match the observations as well as might be hoped. Surprisingly, even the interpretations of scientists are often colored by philosophy and personal bias. Yes, even among scientists there are those who freely confess that they have a need to believe in evolution that goes beyond any demonstration of fact or the scientific method. This is not too surprising since humans are quite prone to bias. And yet, many scientists claim to rise above such biases. You be the judge. However, in reading these quotes remember that quotes can be taken out of context quite easily and may not clearly represent the actual views of the listed author.
I would suppose that if the above quotations are not capable of getting this flowing again then quite probably nothing would be sufficient to do so and perhaps this thread should be considered as one in need of closure.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-21-2004 10:47 PM DarkStar has replied
 Message 181 by MrHambre, posted 06-22-2004 10:29 AM DarkStar has replied
 Message 182 by Loudmouth, posted 06-22-2004 2:24 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 178 of 212 (117347)
06-21-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 10:28 PM


Re: Adding Fuel To The Fire
DS, I know I've asked once and many others have commented as well...please post using the site's general formating.
Your formating makes your posts difficult to read and to follow.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 10:28 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 10:59 PM AdminAsgara has not replied
 Message 180 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 11:17 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 179 of 212 (117352)
06-21-2004 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by AdminAsgara
06-21-2004 10:47 PM


Re: Adding Fuel To The Fire
Just make me a mod and I'll do your dirty work for you by kicking his arse. I'm getting a headache by just trying to read and understand his posts.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-21-2004 10:47 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 212 (117356)
06-21-2004 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by AdminAsgara
06-21-2004 10:47 PM


Re: Adding Fuel To The Fire
Question: Is my formatting technique a violation of forum rules?
If so, which one?
I received requests concerning my formatting techniques, changed them accordingly, and was assured that it was better.
If formatting is discouraged, why does the following page exist?
http:///WebPages/UBBCode.html
I have absolutely no desire to return to the bright white print on dark gray page, as it is difficult on my eyes, so please explain to me why I must do so.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-21-2004 10:47 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
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