Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,517 Year: 3,774/9,624 Month: 645/974 Week: 258/276 Day: 30/68 Hour: 11/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Teleological Science?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 40 of 114 (453602)
02-03-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Quetzal
02-01-2008 8:02 AM


A Dish of Bugs?
Thank you, Quetzal, for an interesting topic. I like this one very much.
In the scenarios you outline, I can see where some may see this as evidence of teleology. But what flavor of teleology? If we are going to appeal to supernatural superstition then my magic black box is on a par with any other magic black box and I might interpret the result as evidence of clairvoyance embedded in the genome; like some before-the-fact Lamarckism devoid of the need for direction from some “intelligent agent.”
I’m afraid this may be the quandary in any such experiment performed on a wild population.
I would like to offer an experiment that might overcome this effect and we have the technology to do this though I can see major problems in my sketchy protocol here.
Take two identical bacterium making sure their genome is identical down to the last base-pair. Put them in separate but identical dishes and let them grow for a long period under identical ideal conditions. Once there are billions of individuals in each dish we sequence the genome of each individual.
The Neo-Darwinian Modern Synthesis would predict the result to show multiple populations of x, y, z +- size in dish 1 with unique genomes not seen in any population in dish 2 and visa versa. None of the populations between the two dishes would be expected to have exactly identical genomes.
If, however, we find populations of about x +- with exactly the same genome A in each dish, other populations of genome B of roughly the same size in each dish and no unique genomes expressed exclusive to one dish, then we can all scratch our heads and reasonably call this evidence of design and directionality in evolution. Since there would be identical conditions for the two dishes without any major change in environment the clairvoyance issue would be minimized.
Just for the fun of it let me stretch the definition of “teleology” a bit and submit that we already see design, direction and purpose in evolution and always have. From the most simple initial replicator 3.8 billion years ago through all the variability in life we see today we see millions of designed survival vessels directed with one goal, one specified purpose; replication. The designs and purpose directed by the blind chemistry of nature.
And some think only their gods can perform miracles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Quetzal, posted 02-01-2008 8:02 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by molbiogirl, posted 02-03-2008 1:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 02-03-2008 1:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 42 of 114 (453633)
02-03-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by molbiogirl
02-03-2008 1:04 PM


Re: A Dish of Bugs?
Each colony would have several billion bacteria (let's say 4 billion for the sake of argument), so the cost of sequencing just one petri dish would be $21,600,000,000,000,000. Double that for 2 petri dishes.
Just one of the many "major problems in my sketchy protocol here."
Another being how do you put the populations in stasis while the sequencing takes place. And there are loads of others.
But these are mere details.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by molbiogirl, posted 02-03-2008 1:04 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 45 of 114 (453679)
02-03-2008 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Quetzal
02-03-2008 1:45 PM


Re: A Dish of Bugs?
In short, it would potentially provide a clue that something was happening which couldn't be explained under the current ToE. Scientists could then take this evidence and conduct more fine-grained experiments to rule out one thing or the other (unknown internal process or externally imposed process).
Indeed it would. I do hope you seriously follow-up on this and keep the rest of us informed. I think we both can hazard a guess as to the eventual outcome, but still, it would be a fascinating try. Maybe Molbiogirl can get the funding for you.
I think the first thing we'd need to do (after the head-scratching phase), would be to determine whether or not there was some unanticipated constraint(s) we imposed inadvertently on the two populations that limited the resulting variation.
Absolutely. Again if Molbiogirl can get the funding we would need to repeat with differing conditions. However, I think that finding significant populations with the exact same genomes in both dishes over a few billion evolved individuals would be telltale. In my opinion, only some directive force would so limit variability among a population of billions given what would be expected in an un-directed scenario under the Modern Synthesis within the same environment with the same constraints. But, then, that’s why people smarter than me would need to take a really close look.
Beyond that, as far as presenting evidence of "purpose" (which is what I understand is meant by teleology), in what way would the experiment show this?
This crazy experiment would not show evidence of purpose as in identifying what such a purpose might be. It would only show directionality and only as compared with the predictions of the Modern Synthesis. We already posit that random mutation and natural selection will evidence a considerable degree of variability even in the most stable population. By showing an extreme restriction of variability coupled with the same exact resultant genomes in two isolated populations would, imo, be a strong indicator of directionality. As to purpose . directionality designs the genome and design is causality for purpose . to paraphrase Kant.
I kind of like this. However, doesn't it beg the question a bit by overlooking all the millions of species that have gone extinct? Maybe there's some generalized, sort-of-Spinozan "purpose" in life writ large - to perpetuate itself, regardless of how may "survival vessels" go extinct along the way. Here I think we may be moving too deeply into metaphysics, 'tho.
Well, thank you. I kinda liked it when I wrote it.
Most species went extinct due to some catastrophic outside force, like a big honking space rock messing up the place. Most of the others are extinct because their offspring are now so removed from the ancestor populations in time that we no longer identify the ancestor and offspring as the same species. Of the few remaining that travelled up evolutionary dead ends and naturally expired without leaving a legacy . blind chemistry is allowed to make numerous mistakes without detracting from the ultimate goal (purpose) of replication.
No metaphysical voodoo intended. Spinoza is appropriate here. “Purpose” is a human conception without any reality in our natural universe. But the use of the word is allowed as a description of what life does, absent the overtones of some intellectual intent, imo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 02-03-2008 1:45 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Quetzal, posted 02-03-2008 7:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 48 of 114 (453717)
02-03-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Quetzal
02-03-2008 7:31 PM


Re: A Dish of Bugs?
I wonder what the lag on something like this would be? I'd bet it would correlate to the lag in the change due to NS, but in advance. Sound reasonable?
It certainly wouldn’t be any faster then NS given the nature of the mechanism but I just play at this stuff. You are the expert in the field (literally). I’ll defer to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Quetzal, posted 02-03-2008 7:31 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024