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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 1 of 142 (426578)
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


I think homeopathy deserves its own thread.
In the Holistic Medicine thread, Percy said:
Homeopathy believes that substances diluted to the point that there is literally nothing left but water can have a positive therapeutic effect upon the body. A common homeopathic preparation approach is to do a 10:1 dilution 30 times. That means that if the concentration of the original substance was 1 (in other words, it was 100% pure substance), then after 30 10:1 dilutions there is .000000000000000000000000000001 left. If exponential notation is familiar to you, that's 10-30.
You can create your own homeopathic remedies if you're so inclined. If there's a headache medication that works reliably for you (and I do mean reliably - Tylenol doesn't work for me, but aspirin cures my headaches every single time), then the next time you get a headache, take the medication and grind it up into a powder and mix it with 10 ml of pure water. That's the 1st dilution. Now take 1 ml of that mixture, add 10 ml of pure water to it, then mix it thoroughly. Repeat this process 28 more times. Now drink the mixture. Did your headache go away?
Even more important, does it make sense to you that such a dilute mixture of headache medication could have any effect whatsoever on you? That's a rhetorical question, hopefully it seems as ridiculous to you as it does to everyone else.
As to mechanism, the claim of homeopathy is that the water "remembers" the substance it was mixed with, even though the mixture is so dilute that none of the original substance is left. There is no evidence of this, and the claim originates with the originator of homeopathy, who since he died in 1843 could not possibly have had any way to know such a thing even if it were true.
There are those who, despite this evidence, insist that homeopathy works.
I'd like to ask homeopathy's supporters this question:
Is a 30X homeopathic "medication" just water?
If so, how do you suppose it "works"?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Sonne, posted 10-08-2007 12:12 AM molbiogirl has replied
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 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2007 10:15 AM molbiogirl has not replied
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 Message 66 by Kitsune, posted 10-12-2007 12:24 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 71 by tesla, posted 02-16-2008 10:56 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 3 of 142 (426619)
10-08-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Sonne
10-08-2007 12:12 AM


Purpledawn and Lindalou would disagree ...
A basic education in just what evidence is (and isn't) would go a long way to solve this issue.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case.
PD presented 3 papers she found (in the Holistic Medicine thread) that "prove" homeopathy works.
I dissected one of them to show her the study was (badly) flawed.
Didn't make a whit of difference.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:15 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 8 of 142 (426654)
10-08-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:15 AM


Lindalou Avoids The Question
LL, answer my question.
Is a 30X homeopathic "medication" just water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:15 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 1:10 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 11 of 142 (426710)
10-08-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 1:10 PM


Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question
I don't honestly know enough about it to be able to say.
It's simply a matter of math.
Percy was kind enough to show, step by step, how a 30X dilution is made.
You start with a 1:10 dilution and then do another 1:10 dilution 30 times.
So. For example, it you start with 1 ml of "medicine", you add 10 mls of water. Then repeat.
To quote Percy:
...then after 30 10:1 dilutions there is .000000000000000000000000000001 left. If exponential notation is familiar to you, that's 10-30.
Our sun weighs about 2x10^33 Grams; that's about 1x10^57 atoms of hydrogen. That is a 1 followed by 57 zeros.
So. Two atoms of homeopathic "medication" would be in a space the size of our sun.
Does that help you understand how diluted it is?
If not, here's another hint.
Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth.
And the fact that your online ND believes in homeopathy speaks volumes.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 15 of 142 (426727)
10-08-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:00 PM


Answer the question, Lindalou!
Are you going to continue with this "But they believe it too!" nonsense?
Do you understand that a homeopathic "medication" is nothing but water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:00 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:45 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 20 of 142 (426750)
10-08-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
10-08-2007 4:36 PM


It's even worse than you think, Dr. A
Lindalou's ND is an online "doctor"!

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 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2007 4:36 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 12:26 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 21 of 142 (426754)
10-08-2007 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:45 PM


Water Memory
The original idea was that the "memory" of the substance is retained in the water. Like I said, I haven't looked into it and I don't know enough to be able to comment knowledgeably. However, as you are well aware, I believe that there are potentially many aspects about the world we live in that are waiting to be discovered. We don't know it all. Maybe we don't even know it all about water.
Finally!
So. Is it fair to say that, even tho there is no evidence whatsoever that water has a memory (and mind you ... physicists have explored the subatomic structure of matter extensively), you're going to go with "Well. We don't know what we're going to find out tomorrow?".
I suppose it's useless to point out this is a logical fallacy.
wiki writes:
The fallacy of appealing to lack of proof of the negative is a logical fallacy of the following form:
"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
It is asserted that a proposition is true, only because it has not been proven false. The negative proof fallacy often occurs in the debate of the existence of supernatural phenomena, in the following form:
* "A supernatural force must exist, because there is no proof that it does not exist".

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 24 of 142 (426796)
10-08-2007 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:49 PM


Water Memory
In 1988, a French scientist, Jacques Benveniste, working at that country's prestigious INSERM institute, claimed to have found that high dilutions of substances in water left a "memory". His findings were published in Nature but with a caveat:
bbc writes:
The then editor of Nature, Sir John Maddox, agreed to publish Benveniste's paper -- on one condition. Benveniste must open his laboratory to a team of independent referees, who would evaluate his techniques.
BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - Homeopathy: The Test
Davenas, E., et al. 1988. Nature 333: 816. The Benveniste paper.
Subsequent investigations disclosed that the research had been inappropriately carried out.
The scandal resulted in the suspension of Benveniste.
At the time, Benveniste was research director of the Clamart-based Unit 200 of INSERM, the French biomedical research agency, which studied the immunology of allergy and inflammation. He was suspended after Maddox launched an investigation of his methods.
Nature 431, 729 (14 October 2004).
There have been others: clusters of water molecules arranged in specific patterns (Anagnostatos 1994); arrangements of isotopes such as deuterium or oxygen-18 (Berezin 1990); or "coherent vibration" of the water molecules (Rubik 1990).
Anagnostatos, G. S. 1994. In Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics, edited by J. Schulte and P. C. Endler. Dordrecht: Kluwer.
Berezin, A. A. 1990. Medical Hypothesis 31: 43.
Rubik, B. 1990. Berlin Journal of Research in Homeopathy 1: 27.
Of course, there is no proof whatsoever of any of this nonsense.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 25 of 142 (426798)
10-08-2007 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Damouse
10-08-2007 6:32 PM


You think that's bad...
In 1938, Senator Royal Copeland of New York, a physician trained in homeopathy and a principal author of the FDCA (Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act), included within the law’s definition of “drugs” articles monographed in the HPUS (Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States).
Homeopathics were grandfathered in!
FDA regulates homeopathic drugs in several significantly different ways from other drugs. Manufacturers of homeopathic drugs are deferred from submitting new drug applications to FDA. Their products are exempt from good manufacturing practice requirements related to expiration dating and from finished product testing for identity and strength. Homeopathic drugs in solid oral dosage form must have an imprint that identifies the manufacturer and indicates that the drug is homeopathic. The imprint on conventional products, unless specifically exempt, must identify the active ingredient and dosage strength as well as the manufacturer.
Page Not Found | FDA

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 30 of 142 (426866)
10-08-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by johnfolton
10-08-2007 10:36 PM


Smell v. Homeopathy
The human nose is capable of detecting its said 10,000 different smells in parts per trillion. Water separates charges due to its polar covalency suspect it becomes hard to test in parts per trillion but interestingly the body can recognize smells in parts per trillion which is like what your likely talking in respect to a 30 time dilution.
Olfactory receptors detect smell using a "lock and key" mechanism.
The smell (the key) fits into the receptor (the lock).
The key (hah!) difference is this:
There's a molecule present that fits into the olfactory nerve receptor.
There are no "medicinal molecules" in a homeopathic.
It is water.
Plain old water.
Hence the twisted logic of Anagnostatos, Berezin, et. al.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by johnfolton, posted 10-08-2007 10:36 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by johnfolton, posted 10-08-2007 11:45 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 32 of 142 (426882)
10-09-2007 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by johnfolton
10-08-2007 11:45 PM


It's Chemistry
You do agree its been diluted thus its not just water if the body can sense ppt then if this diluted water is consumed no reason the body will not react to this dilution "ppt".
Are you familiar with Avogadro's number?
The laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether.
Avogadro showed that there is a large but finite and specific number of atoms or molecules in a mole of substance, specifically 6.022 x 10^23.
There are 10^33 molecules of water in a 30X dilution.
Therefore, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, but water in a 30X homeopathic.
Therefore, there is nothing for the body to react to.

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 46 of 142 (426967)
10-09-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 3:03 AM


Check the video about waters structures multiply and how it relates to homeopathy.
Two things.
First. Couldn't cut it with the "They can distinguish between 2 remedies" schtick, so now you're gonna try the "Water has a memory" thing?
Pick a quack explanation and stick with it!
Second. I need to go to txoptions.com to see a Nobel Prize worthy breakthrough in physics?
Um. I don't think so, buster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 3:03 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 1:34 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 52 of 142 (427031)
10-09-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:26 PM


She's a practicing neurologist.
Out of curiosity, have you anything other than her word on that?

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 53 of 142 (427042)
10-09-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 1:34 PM


Reversespin needs to offer evidence in support of his "ideas"
Its been noted that not all waters are equal in nature it has to do with structures found in water.
You need to offer evidence in support of this cockamamie idea.
And by support, I don't mean some loon on the interwebs who thinks he's figured something out that's been missed by the hundreds of thousands of professional physicists.
By support, I mean "from the primary literature" (aka from scientific journals).
Until you provide support, I suggest you refrain from posting the same bare assertions over and over again.
IaJ just got suspended for just that sort of behavior.
Here's what AdminNosy had to say:
When support is presented and it is unsatisfactory that is most often explained. There are a large number of cases where there is no support offered whatsoever. In fact I'd say that "most" is wrong. Only a very few support their assertions with anything other than more assertions. And when they do they get the facts wrong but at least those few do offer some support.
Message 47
P.S. Its better you believe its nothing cause if people explained to the FDA that nothing is really something they might start regulating homeopathy.
Homeopathics were grandfathered in (back in 1938) by a homeopath senator who wrote the FDCA (the legislation that established the FDA).
And we've been pissed off about it ever since.
And we submitted a petition to the FDA 10 years ago:
http://www.quackwatch.org/...omeopetition/homeopetition.html
And the wheels of bureaucracy grind exceedingly slow.
Page Not Found | FDA
FDA regulates homeopathic drugs in several significantly different ways from other drugs. Manufacturers of homeopathic drugs are deferred from submitting new drug applications to FDA. Their products are exempt from good manufacturing practice requirements related to expiration dating and from finished product testing for identity and strength. Homeopathic drugs in solid oral dosage form must have an imprint that identifies the manufacturer and indicates that the drug is homeopathic. The imprint on conventional products, unless specifically exempt, must identify the active ingredient and dosage strength as well as the manufacturer.
They haven't been regulated out of existence (yet) ... but once the FDA requires proof of efficacy, out the door they go!

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 54 of 142 (427043)
10-09-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:33 PM


Online "ND"s
However, I also trust my ND. Homeopathy is a small part of what she does and she's never prescribed it for me. If she did, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and try it. There's no harm in it, it's not as if I'm hoping it's going to cure my cancer or mend a broken leg.
Out of curiosity, would you try anything suggested by this "ND"?

This message is a reply to:
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