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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 79 of 142 (456273)
02-16-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by tesla
02-16-2008 4:47 PM


Re: apologies
tesla writes:
quote:
side note: a cup of warm water or coffee can be full to the brim, where it would appear than adding any more of anything would cause it to overflow, but sugar, being soluble, slips between the water molecules and can be added to an extent before true overflow of capacity.
Let's see if you can do some of your own homework.
Do you know what Avogadro's number is? It is the number of molecules of a substance required to have the same number in grams as its atomic weight. That is, since molecular oxygen has a molecular weight of about 16. Then if you have 16 grams of molecular oxygen, you know that you have Avogadro's number-worth of oxygen molecules.
It is about 6.022e23.
Now, if you do a dilution of 10-30, how many molecules do you think are going to be left if you only started with 1023 of them to begin with?
You do know how to multiply exponentials, yes?
The idea of "between the water molecules" is irrelevant. That's the entire point behind dissolving in the first place. Let's not assume chemists are incapable of understanding the most basic aspects of their profession.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by tesla, posted 02-16-2008 4:47 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by tesla, posted 02-16-2008 7:25 PM Rrhain has replied
 Message 109 by Kapyong, posted 02-18-2008 3:37 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 86 of 142 (456318)
02-17-2008 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by tesla
02-16-2008 7:25 PM


Re: apologies
tesla responds to me:
quote:
if water has a tiny amount of something in it, that could not have any usable medicinal effect, but the water by study is having an effect, its worth finding out why.
Then how do you get "purified water" in the first place? If water "remembers" what was once dissolved in it, how can one possibly get water that doesn't have some sort of memory? The very justification of the process of homeopathy precludes it from ever having any effect because it will always have an effect of some sort, quite possibly counter and opposite to the one you are trying to achieve.
And since there has never been any observed effect, why are we bothering to try and find the "why" of something that doesn't exist?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by tesla, posted 02-16-2008 7:25 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 11:55 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 87 of 142 (456319)
02-17-2008 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Kitsune
02-17-2008 2:24 AM


LindaLou writes:
quote:
Homeopathy is energy medicine.
But it is self-contradictory. If you've diluted the substance so much that not one molecule of the substance remains and yet there is some sort of effect because the water is somehow "remembering" what was once dissolved in it, then how can one possibly get "pure water" to dilute the original substance in the first place? All water would be overwhelmed with contaminated "energy" from all the previous solutes that had ever been dissolved within it previously.
quote:
And yet it does.
No, it doesn't.
There has never been an actual study showing effectiveness of homeopathy. In fact, the exact opposite is what is seen: Homeopathy does nothing:
Effect of homeopathy on analgesic intake following knee ligament reconstruction: a phase III monocentre randomized placebo controlled study.
Paris A, Gonnet N, Chaussard C, Belon P, Rocourt F, Saragaglia D, Cracowski JL.
Inserm, CIC003, CHU Grenoble, Grenoble F-38043, Grenoble, France.
RESULTS: One hundred and fifty-eight patients were randomized (66 in the placebo arm, 67 in the homeopathic arm and 25 in the noninterventional group). There was no difference between the treated and the placebo group for primary end-point (mean (95% CI) 48% (35.8, 56.3), and 56% (43.7, 68.3), required less than 10 mg day(-1) of morphine in each group, respectively). The homeopathy treatment had no effect on morphine intake between 24 and 72 h or on the visual analogue pain scale, or on quality of life assessed by the SF-36 questionnaire. In addition, these parameters were not different in patients enrolled in the open-label noninterventional control arm. CONCLUSIONS: The complex of homeopathy tested in this study was not superior to placebo in reducing 24 h morphine consumption after knee ligament reconstruction.
The effect of adding homeopathic treatment to rehabilitation on muscle tone of children with spastic cerebral palsy.
Sajedi F, Alizad V, Alaeddini F, Fatemi R, Mazaherinezhad A.
Department of Clinical Sciences, University of Welfare & Rehabilitation, Koodakyar Street, Daneshjoo Building, Evin 1985713834 Tehran, Iran.
RESULTS: Showed no positive changes in the patients with homeopathy and occupational therapy at the end of treatment, and there were no statistically significant differences in tonicity of upper and lower limbs, trunk and neck in the case group in comparison with the control group. CONCLUSION: Adding homeopathy to rehabilitation had no significant effect on spasm of CP children as measured by Ashworth test.
The effect of homeopathically prepared thyroxine on highland frogs: influence of electromagnetic fields
S. Weber, P.C. Endler, S.U. Welles, E. Suanjak-Traidl, W. Scherer-Pongratz, M. Frass, H. Spranger, G. Peithner and H. Lothaller
Interuniversity College Graz/Castle of Seggau, Austria
Peithner Inc., Vienna, Austria
University of Graz, Austria
Received 13 December 2006; revised 14 November 2007; accepted 14 November 2007. Available online 11 January 2008.
Results: Animals treated with the standard test solution thyroxine 10’30 metamorphosed more slowly than the control animals, ie the effect of the homeopathically prepared thyroxine was opposed to the usual physiological effect of molecular thyroxine. The cumulative number of test animals that had reached the four-legged stage at defined points in time was smaller in the group treated with homeopathically prepared thyroxine at most of the points in time. This was found independently by all three research teams involved.
Homeopathy for attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder or hyperkinetic disorder.Coulter MK, Dean ME.
University of York, Hull York Medical School, Second Floor, Hull York Medical School, Heslington, York, UK, YO10 5DD. mkc500@york.ac.uk
MAIN RESULTS: The forms of homeopathy evaluated to date do not suggest significant treatment effects for the global symptoms, core symptoms of inattention, hyperactivity or impulsivity, or related outcomes such as anxiety in Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: There is currently little evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy for the treatment of ADHD. Development of optimal treatment protocols is recommended prior to further randomised controlled trials being undertaken.
So where are these papers that show an effect?
quote:
Surely it's a topic worthy of more investigation
How does one investigate that which does not exist?
quote:
Me, I like being a crank.
And that doesn't tell you something?
I seem to recall the last time this was brought up that it was suggested that you respond to these flights of fancy because you get psychological satisfaction out of it. You dismissed such musings previously, but now it appears you are agreeing that it is true.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Kitsune, posted 02-17-2008 2:24 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Kitsune, posted 02-17-2008 8:52 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 105 of 142 (456420)
02-17-2008 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by tesla
02-17-2008 11:55 AM


Re: apologies
tesla responds to me:
quote:
if people say it works, and you say it don't, if the argument is strong enough, examine the water.
And it has been. And it was found that the people who claim that it works were not accurate in that claim.
I have a touch of bursitis in my hip. About a year and a half ago, I was in London and had some time so I went to the British Museum. Stood in front of the Parthenon marbles and pined about how they really need to be sent back to Athens.
So when I woke up the next day without any pain in my hip, was it because of the "energy" of the ancient marbles that did it?
Or was it because I was exercising it like my physical therapist tells me to do?
That's the thing: Just because somebody tells you that it works doesn't mean diddly. There are so many other variables that could be involved that unless you stop and do a controlled study that specifically looks to account for the variables involved, you're just picking random bits out of the air.
But when we look at homeopathy under controlled circumstances, the "effect" vanishes.
And you haven't answered the question: If water has a "memory" of what was dissolved in it previously, then there is no possible way for homeopathy to work because the water would be overwhelmed with the "energy" of everything that had ever been dissolved in it. It is a self-refuting system. The very process by which they claim it works destroys any possibility of it ever working.
quote:
it isn't the water, but another source that is helping them.
But there isn't anything in there but water.
So if it isn't the water, then the conclusion is as what we see:
Nothing is happening. No biological effect is seen.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 11:55 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 10:48 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 107 of 142 (456424)
02-17-2008 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by tesla
02-17-2008 10:48 PM


Re: apologies
tesla responds to me:
quote:
maybe they are just benefiting from the water in their diet
But that's accounted for, too. The control is not just comparing a homeopathic remedy to a standard treatment. The control is to compare homeopathy to plain water as well as to doing nothing. And we find that homeopathy does nothing more than taking plain water.
And note, the dosage of a homeopathic remedy is on the order of milliliters. This has no biological effect upon a healthy body.
quote:
or they just claim it helps because it eases their minds that they are doing something instead of nothing.
But since it doesn't do anything, how can they possibly get better in reality? I'm all for the psychological part of healing. Making someone calm and confident goes a long way in having a successful treatment if only to ensure that the treatment regimen is carried out fully. But if all you have is psychology, you don't have any actual treatment taking place.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 10:48 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 11:03 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 110 of 142 (456449)
02-18-2008 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Kapyong
02-18-2008 3:37 AM


Re: apologies
Iasion responds to me:
quote:
your analysis is good - but it assumes one starts with exactly one mole of water, which may not be accurate. Don't they start with a liter or some larger amount?
Well, do the math. It doesn't matter how much solvent we have. It only matters how much solute. Suppose we have absolutely no solvent. If we start with a mole and do a thirty-times dilution of taking tenths, we run out of molecules at the 23rd dilution. It doesn't matter how much solvent we dissolve the solute in because we're taking a tenth of everything available. If the mixture is well-mixed, then taking a tenth of a mole of sugar dissolved in a liter of water gives us the same number of sugar molecules transferred as if we dissolved it in a kiloliter of water.
What dissolving in water does is reduce the chances of you actually getting a molecule in solution at the end. In physical mixtures, things are not perfectly distributed. They clump. Thus, when you take a tenth of a solution, you stand a very good chance of taking fewer molecules of solute than if you had taken a tenth of pure solute due to the fact that the molecules aren't perfectly distributed.
The odds get worse the more dilute the solution. Suppose there are only two molecules in the solution. If you take a tenth of the solution, do you really think there's a good chance of getting even one molecule?
So in order to get a single molecule of the substance left in a homeopathic remedy, you'd need on the order of beyond 10,000,000 moles. If you were using sugar, you'd need to start with nearly 8 million cups of sugar (about 4 million pounds) in order to get one molecule left after the dilution.
The only way homeopathy can work is if we conclude that taking something away makes it more abundant.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Kapyong, posted 02-18-2008 3:37 AM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Kapyong, posted 03-14-2008 11:20 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
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