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Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 202 (310393)
05-08-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by LudoRephaim
05-08-2006 6:24 PM


Re: Leviathan
LudoRephaim writes:
Leviathan was a mere animal, what's the point?
If Job cannot take on a mere animal, how can he take on God?
Exactly. If the animal was a mere crocodile, Job could take it on.
(And don't say he can't have help. There is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest that.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-08-2006 6:24 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-20-2006 9:39 AM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 167 of 202 (313850)
05-20-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
05-08-2006 6:58 PM


forest for trees
Ringo writes:
If the animal was a mere crocodile, Job could take it on.
And if the wild Ox was a mere animal, Job could tame it. Sigh....
The wild ox (aurochs) seems to be untameable to Job (Job 39:9-12). Yet people where able to tame them in the distant past (all your cattle breeds come from them)Even if Job could use other people, it seems to be impossible for him to tame the Wild Ox. maybe because he 1. Doesn't know how 2. isn't physically capable of the demanding work to do so (he did have cysts over all his body (Job 2:7)or 3. was too afraid to do so.
Since Job himself could not tame the wild ox (aurochs) yet other people where able to do so, what does that tell you about Job being unable to kill the Leviathan???

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 05-08-2006 6:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 05-20-2006 2:27 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 168 of 202 (313907)
05-20-2006 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by LudoRephaim
05-20-2006 9:39 AM


Re: forest for trees
LudoRephaim writes:
Since Job himself could not tame the wild ox (aurochs) yet other people where able to do so, what does that tell you about Job being unable to kill the Leviathan???
There are subtle differences between the wild-ox story and the Leviathan story:
quote:
Job 39:9 Will the wild-ox be willing to serve thee? Or will he abide by thy crib?
Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the wild-ox with his band in the furrow? Or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Job 39:11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? Or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
Job 39:12 Wilt thou rely on him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather the corn of thy threshing-floor?
Notice that the question is not just "Can you tame the wild-ox?". It's "Can you trust him?".
Can you leave him to work on his own? No. Will he bring the harvest back to you instead of keeping it for himself? No.
The wild-ox will do what God created him to do, not what Job wants him to do. Job would have to send a servant to "supervise" the wild-ox.
On the other hand, the Leviathan story suggests a "higher" level of beast:
quote:
Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant forever?
God tells Job that he can't make a servant of Leviathan - but the wild-ox would be a servant of a servant.
-------------
Anyway, my point is that Leviathan was a creature of mythical proportions, not a mere crocodile.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-20-2006 9:39 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-20-2006 3:30 PM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 169 of 202 (313926)
05-20-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
05-20-2006 2:27 PM


how many times a charm?
maybe 2nd times a charm. Hopefully.
Ringo writes:
Notice the question is not just"can you tame the wild ox?"
So you agree that taming the wild ox is a part of the verses in question. Yet it seems the verses show that It Cannot be tamed
it even says "will the Wild Ox be willing to serve you?" Notice it doesn't say "willing to serve Your Servant" but "willing to serve you. The "you" being Job. God NEVER says the Wild Ox would be the servant of a servant. Another servant isn't even mentioned in the chapter nor talked about. It is JOB and only JOB. It is saying that Job cannot make the wild ox his (and only his) servant.
Ringo writes:
The wild ox will do what God created him to do, not what Job wants him to do
Yet you seem to forget tham Human beings have long sinced tamed the wild ox (Aurochs) and have used them for food and farming for thousands of years.
Ringo writes:
Job would have to send a servant to "supervise" the wild ox.
Now lets narrarate what you said based on previous statements.
God: can you slay leviathan?
Job: If you get me some good old boys and some spears and lances and weapons, i'll do it!
now lets follow the logic...
God: Can you make the wild ox tame?
Job: give me a few servants with some appropriate tools (ie those needed for taming a 3000 lbs 6 feet 6 inch tall at-the-withers monster Bull) and i'll get 'er dun!
my point is that you bring out the idea that if Leviathan where a mere Crocodile, it wouldn't be "unkillable" as Job 41 makes out Leviathan to be, and only Job and a few guys could take it on and slay it, thus hinting to a supernatural monster. To you the whole passage would seem a joke or weak if it was just a crocodile. Yet the Wild Ox seems to be shown as "untame-able" and you bring out the idea that Job could tame a Wild Ox with a servant, but you do not go on and on that the wild ox is a "supernatural beast".
Why the contradiction??

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 05-20-2006 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 05-20-2006 6:43 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 170 of 202 (313974)
05-20-2006 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by LudoRephaim
05-20-2006 3:30 PM


Re: how many times a charm?
LudoRephaim writes:
To you the whole passage would seem a joke or weak if it was just a crocodile.
Exactly.
Yet the Wild Ox seems to be shown as "untame-able"....
No. That's where I was trying to point out the subtlety.
God asked Job if he could trust the wild ox to work on its own like a human servant. The answer, of course, was "no". The ox, no matter how "tame", would always be an animal - not a willing servant. It had no knowledge of good and evil. It could only follow its own instincts.
It was tameable (and killable and eatable), but Job had no power to change its nature.
Leviathan, on the other hand, was not killable - Job had no power over it at all.
In chapter 39, God showed Job that his influence over God's creation - e.g. the wild ox - was limited. In chapter 41, God showed Job that he had no influence on some of God's creations - e.g. Leviathan.
Unless Leviathan was a mythical super-beast, Job would always have had a "Yeah, but...."

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-20-2006 3:30 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-22-2006 5:43 PM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 171 of 202 (314428)
05-22-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
05-20-2006 6:43 PM


third time a charm?
Ringo writes:
God asked Job if he could trust the Wild Ox to work on it's own like a human servant.
You seem to be forgetting the part where God asked, and I quote once again:
"Is the Wild Ox WILLING to SERVE YOU?" Job 39:9.
When you take the "willing to serve you" part with the rest of the text, pretty much shows Job could not tame and master the Wild Ox. God didn't just ask if he could trust the Wild Ox. He also asked if the Wild Ox would be Willing (notice the word. I'll post it again willing to serve him, the "him" being Job. In order for the Wild Ox to be tamed, you have to make it "willing" to do so (ie Breaking it's spirit or will)which seems to be something that Job cannot do. Otherwise it would go like this....
God: Is the Wild Ox willing to serve you?
Job: If I break his will, he'll be more than willing!
Yet Job doesn't respond in such a manner. Getting a hint yet??
Ringo writes:
The Ox, no matter how tame, would always be an animal-not a willing servant
If you have an ox that doesn't want to pull your plow and you give him a lash of the whip, watch that ox become willing!

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 05-20-2006 6:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 05-22-2006 6:04 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 172 of 202 (314438)
05-22-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by LudoRephaim
05-22-2006 5:43 PM


Re: third time a charm?
I don't know where you get this "Job and nobody but Job" nonsense.
The book of Job was written about Job - it wasn't written for Job. It was written for everybody to understand how powerful God is compared to all of us.
So what if Job himself couldn't tame the wild ox? People reading the book of Job will say, "So what if a sick old man can't tame a wild ox? I can." What are they supposed to learn from the story?
As I have said, there is a subtlety that you are missing. The ox will eat your crops if you let him. It doesn't matter if you can tame him. He is still the way God made him.
Only God can make an ox. Whether we can tame him or not, he is still as God made him.
So what if Job himself couldn't kill Leviathan? People reading the book of Job will say, "So what if a sick old man can't kill a crocodile? I can." What are they supposed to learn from the story?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-22-2006 5:43 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-25-2006 8:34 PM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 173 of 202 (315192)
05-25-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
05-22-2006 6:04 PM


oh brother!
Ringo writes:
So what if a sick old man cant tame a Wild Ox. I can
Do you know for sure if the people in the land and time of Job knew how to tame a wild ox? Just because people long before Job did it doesn't mean that Job and those around him could.
Ringo writes:
It doesn't matter if you can tame him.
Yet the text show he cannot.
Ringo writes:
So what if a sick old man couldn't kill Leviathan? I can.
Still stuck on the "Unkillablility" of Leviathan? How it shows Leviathan to be beyind-a-shadow-of-a-doubt to be invincible? Well, as I've shown before, Job 39:13-18 seems to show the Ostritch as cruel to her young and not wise enough to keep her eggs from being crushed by another animal stepping on it, yet we've since found out otherwise (The Ivp Bible Background commentary: Old Testament, page 510)God was talking to Job in a way that he could understand. He wasn't going in depth into why Ostritch and Wild Ox act the way they do. He was basing his argument on the observation of Job and other ancients and their conclusions to prove a point!
Since Job shows the Aurochs to be untameable, yet they where tamed, and since it shows the Ostritch to be cruel and uncaring, yet it hasa been recently proven otherwise, what does that tell you about the "invincibility" of Leviathan????
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 05-22-2006 6:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 05-25-2006 9:04 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 174 of 202 (315196)
05-25-2006 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by LudoRephaim
05-25-2006 8:34 PM


What's the point?
LudoRephaim writes:
Do you know for sure if the people in the land and time of Job knew how to tame a wild ox?
Once again, that's not the point. The SUBTLE message is that the ox can not be TRUSTED to plow on his own, bring in the harvest on his own, etc. His NATURE is under God's control only.
The point of the leviathan story is different: some parts of God's creation are completely beyond man's control - e.g. Leviathan. As I have been trying to say, that point is lost unless Leviathan is a mythical creature - for all intents and purposes "unkillable".
-------------
I have asked and asked and asked, and I don't think I've gotten an answer: What do you think the point of the story is if Leviathan is a mere crocodile?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-25-2006 8:34 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-31-2006 9:25 AM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 175 of 202 (316516)
05-31-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ringo
05-25-2006 9:04 PM


Re: What's the point?
Ringo writes:
The subtle message is that the ox cannot be TRUSTED to plow on his own,
Once again, you forget the WILLING part of the equation. If the wild Ox isn't willing, it cannot be tamed. The word "WILLING" comes before the word "Trust".
I've already answred your question about what the point of the story is if Leviathan was a mere Crocodile. You seem to not want to face my answers so you ask again and again. Maybe if I write it this way you might just understand.
If you can not take on the mighty, super strong Leviathan(crocodile), how can you take on Omnipotent Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 05-25-2006 9:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 05-31-2006 10:48 AM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 176 of 202 (316541)
05-31-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by LudoRephaim
05-31-2006 9:25 AM


Re: What's the point?
LudoRephaim writes:
If the wild Ox isn't willing, it cannot be tamed.
Once again, the tameability of the wild ox is irrelevant. The subtle point is that the wild ox is never fully controlable by Job - regardless of whether or not he can "tame" it.
Leviathan is different in that he is not only uncontrolable, but also (virtually) unkillable.
If you can not take on the mighty, super strong Leviathan(crocodile), how can you take on Omnipotent Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
That's just what I'm saying though. A crocodile can be taken on by ordinary men with simple weapons, as I have shown in Message 139. There is nothing in the text that suggests that Job - a sick old man - has to wheel himself out and kill Leviathan without any help. The clear implication is that Leviathan is stronger than any man.
If Leviathan was a puny crocodile, the comparison with God would be a joke.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-31-2006 9:25 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 3:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 181 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-31-2006 4:57 PM ringo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 177 of 202 (316615)
05-31-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
05-31-2006 10:48 AM


nitpick
the comparison with God would be a joke.
what comparison with god is NOT a joke?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 05-31-2006 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 05-31-2006 3:54 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 178 of 202 (316640)
05-31-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 3:22 PM


Re: nitpick
arachnophilia writes:
what comparison with god is NOT a joke?
True. But if the comparison is going to have any impact, Leviathan has to be a lot more powerful than any man.
If Leviathan was only a crocodile and a sick old man wasn't allowed any help in killing it, then God was really only putting Himself two steps above a sick old man.
Ludo has God saying, "You can't get up out of your sick-bed and kill Leviathan." Job's response could have been, "Maybe not, but I know eighty guys that could do it." Then (muttering under his breath), "And a couple of them could kick your ass, too."
Now Job didn't have that reaction - and it's kinda the point of the story that he didn't - but there's no impact to the story if he could have had that reaction.
Similarly, there's no impact to the wild-ox story if Job could have said, "Sure, I can trust the wild-ox to reap the harvest and bring it into the granary by himself." We all know that no man has that kind of control over animals.
And we all know that the only animal that man can't kill is a mythical one.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 3:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 4:02 PM ringo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 179 of 202 (316647)
05-31-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ringo
05-31-2006 3:54 PM


Re: nitpick
(like i said, only a nitpick. of course the story has to have impact. i totally agree with your points here)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 05-31-2006 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 180 of 202 (316655)
05-31-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 4:02 PM


Re: nitpick
arachnophilia writes:
like i said, only a nitpick.
Thanks for keeping an eye on me. Keeps me honest.

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This message is a reply to:
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