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Author Topic:   Could life evolve in the vacuum of outer space?
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 16 of 29 (512430)
06-17-2009 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by howdoideletethis
06-17-2009 9:35 PM


keeping track of your thoughts
Hi again, TristanMC.

Please use the message reply button rather than the thread reply button when you reply to someone:

If you use the message reply buttons (there's one at the bottom right of each message):


... your message is linked to the one you are replying to (adds clarity). You can also look at the way a post is formated with the "peek" button next to it.

You've used it before, so I know you can find it. This helps keep track of the thoughts you've posted and which have been replied to. This board is better than most others at being able to track this kind of thing, so we like to take advantage of it.

Objects accelerate and change paths in the first 20 seconds, among other areas of the video.

Really?

Or is it just apparent motion? Something coming at you and then barely missing seems to accelerate and change direction. Remember the POV (point of view) is not static, but an object in orbit along a curved path. You could track objects on the surface of the earth and they would appear to accelerate and change paths, when in reality it is just the different positions between object and viewer in a non-static frame of reference.

Hm, energy wasn't really what I meant, but at the moment I can't really think of what I did mean. Maybe I was curious to think if something could originate from the solar and cosmic radiation, building from all of those protons, alpha particles, electrons and all of the quarks and leptons that go with it? We know these tiny things exist and there very well could be small particles we've yet to encounter.

But there needs to be something to make that can reproduce itself imperfectly, to even begin to qualify as "life" as it is understood in even the crudest sense.

But then according to life as we know it these would arrange themselves to be just like normal life and thus wouldn't be able to exist in the vacuum of space. Hm..

There are bacteria living in space, that is not a problem, the problem is organizing it and having sufficient concentration for reproduction.

How about this, someone else use their imagination and think of the most ideal way something might evolve in the vacuum of space. (And no, being on a meteor doesn't count)

How about first defining what "life" is? Speculation is fun, but curiously, such speculation doesn't mean it has to occur.

And if I had 44 anuses I wouldn't be able to maneuver like the ship because I'd be exposed in space and I would die. So ha. =P

Then perhaps you would like to apply a little focus on your speculation, and pursue it to a logical conclusion, rather than just engaging in the next wild idea that occurs to you without resolving anything.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 847 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 17 of 29 (512478)
06-18-2009 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by howdoideletethis
06-17-2009 9:35 PM


How about this, someone else use their imagination and think of the most ideal way something might evolve in the vacuum of space. (And no, being on a meteor doesn't count)

There is a huge problem with this, any "ideal" way would have already taken place given the billions of years that the universe has had.

Our imagination is limited by our knowledge, as well as the possiblity of what we imagine being possible, is also limited by our knowledge. It seems like, given billions of years to acheive "life", the only possible way is on a stable enough, and large enough, object in space with sufficient gravity.

I can "imagine" a microscopic quantum universe where life exists and the energy beings communicate through quantum fields. - I can imagine this. But, because I have a limited understanding of quantum mechanics, I have no idea what is even possible at a quantum level. (even though I'm sure that my imagined scenario is complete nonsense). My point however is that it doesn't matter much what I can "imagine", if it violates the laws of physics, or is contradicted by known facts, I'll just be imagining nonsense. The point is to know and be educated on the facts and laws before our imagination runs wild.

Either way, how wild would it be, not knowing how anything forms, to imagine that a force like gravity can create a star, that, with it's gravitational force, creates planets, that through the process of chemical reactions simple organic life emerges on 1 of those planets, and after billions of years 1 out of a billion or so species developed a highly complex consciousness! I believe that is pretty fuck'n incredible on it's own to imagine.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2612 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 18 of 29 (512488)
06-18-2009 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by howdoideletethis
06-17-2009 9:35 PM


Bad Attitude Control
How about this, someone else use their imagination and…
Quickly followed by…
And if I had 44 anuses I wouldn't be able to maneuver like the ship because I'd be exposed in space and I would die.
So much for using ones imagination. How do you know what would happen if you had 44 anuses? Have you ever had 44 anuses? 44 anuses might just be the evolutionary jump that mankind is waiting for to get off world and colonize the Universe. But not with your attitude, TMC.

Do you really not have something better to do?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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howdoideletethis
Inactive Junior Member


Message 19 of 29 (512500)
06-18-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by lyx2no
06-18-2009 1:15 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
Yes, I do have better things to do, seeing as this is only my fourth post, unlike you're 700+ (no telling how many are useless replies).

And yes RAZD, It could be because of the point of view, but apparently you didn't watch the video. Things wouldn't appear to instantly reverse directions on the surface of the earth. It might curve, or hook, but not completely reverse and travel backwards on it's path.

And if you really want to focus on my anus, RAZD, you can send me a message. I get the feeling these forums are more for degradation than discussion.

That is a good way to think of it onifre. And if it took billions of years to create something as intricate as the human species, think of the potential of billions of more years of universal existence. Of course, the sun will slowly die and eat everything in its way, but I'm sure human kind will find a way to preserve life what with technology growing at an exponential rate. Those first single celled guys probably thought "Whoa, we're the only things existing thing here. This is pretty impressive. Things couldn't possibly get any more crazy than this!" And now look.

But pardon me, single cells didn't know the English language then and probably weren't even aware they were the first and they probably didn't have much of a thought process. Sorry for that completely useless analogy, I'm just a moron.


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Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1134 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 20 of 29 (512514)
06-18-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 2:47 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
And yes RAZD, It could be because of the point of view, but apparently you didn't watch the video. Things wouldn't appear to instantly reverse directions on the surface of the earth. It might curve, or hook, but not completely reverse and travel backwards on it's path.

That depends on the relative motions of everything. If you watch the planets move in the night sky over a period of weeks, you'll notice that the planets, as we catch up to them and pass them (for the outer planets) they do in fact seem to reverse direction, not once, but twice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by howdoideletethis, posted 06-18-2009 2:47 PM howdoideletethis has responded

Replies to this message:
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howdoideletethis
Inactive Junior Member


Message 21 of 29 (512516)
06-18-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Perdition
06-18-2009 5:11 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
But those are over enormous distances and over a large amount of time, this takes place over less than a second.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Perdition, posted 06-18-2009 5:11 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 847 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 22 of 29 (512518)
06-18-2009 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 2:47 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
I get the feeling these forums are more for degradation than discussion.

Actually, this forum is a very educational forum, once you get into actual science.

But pardon me, single cells didn't know the English language then and probably weren't even aware they were the first and they probably didn't have much of a thought process.

This is what I meant by a "complex sensory system." They were probably aware of some things, but certainly not to the degree that humans, with such a highly complex sensory system, are.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.
This message is a reply to:
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howdoideletethis
Inactive Junior Member


Message 23 of 29 (512519)
06-18-2009 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by onifre
06-18-2009 5:24 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
Alright well I suppose I have quenched this curiosity. Thanks for the input! Except for lyx2no, he gets no thanks.
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1134 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 24 of 29 (512527)
06-18-2009 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 5:18 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
It's not the distance so much as the effects of two things moving in circles of different diameters. If the difference between them is very small, the changes will take place very quickly, if the distances are large, they'll take longer.
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1083 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 25 of 29 (512528)
06-18-2009 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 2:47 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
Yes, I do have better things to do, seeing as this is only my fourth post, unlike you're 700+ (no telling how many are useless replies).

And yes RAZD, It could be because of the point of view, but apparently you didn't watch the video. Things wouldn't appear to instantly reverse directions on the surface of the earth. It might curve, or hook, but not completely reverse and travel backwards on it's path.

And if you really want to focus on my anus, RAZD, you can send me a message. I get the feeling these forums are more for degradation than discussion.

That is a good way to think of it onifre. And if it took billions of years to create something as intricate as the human species, think of the potential of billions of more years of universal existence. Of course, the sun will slowly die and eat everything in its way, but I'm sure human kind will find a way to preserve life what with technology growing at an exponential rate. Those first single celled guys probably thought "Whoa, we're the only things existing thing here. This is pretty impressive. Things couldn't possibly get any more crazy than this!" And now look.

But pardon me, single cells didn't know the English language then and probably weren't even aware they were the first and they probably didn't have much of a thought process. Sorry for that completely useless analogy, I'm just a moron.

EVCForum is not an outlet for degradation - it's a debate forum. The adversarial nature of debate, combined with the anonymity and communication barrier of text on the internet occasionally results in unintentional offense.

Your post attracted a decent amount of incredulity simply because of the subject matter - "energy beings" are exclusively the realm of fantasy (including both science fiction and religion), not observed reality. There is no reason to suggest that such things could exist, and in fact based on the physics definition of "energy" the term simply makes no sense. Entities composed of high-energy particles would make more sense, but would still be so improbable as to justify immediate dismissal pending an observational reason to think they may exist or a mechanism that would allow their formation.

If you found some of the responses to be personally offensive, my best advice would be to simply not take it personally, and ask why those posters responded the way they did. After all, appealing to personal incredulity is a logical fallacy (as opposed to providing a reason for an incredulous response).

You also brought up a YouTube video showing moving objects that you are unable to personally identify. This caused you to break off into what can most accurately be described as unjustified wild speculation - your response to the unknown was to use your imagination. This is the same basic human behavior that led ancient cultures to speculate that lightning was caused by Thor's hammer, and that the Sun was the golden wheel of Apollo's flying chariot. It seems to be a near-universal tendancy in humanity to attempt to explain what we don't understand, even when our explanations have no basis in reality. Pointing that out should not be personally offensive to you - rather, it shoudl remind of one of the many pitfalls inherant in the human thought process. It's no different from any other myriad flaws in human reasoning - pre-existing bias, confirmation bias, false pattern recognition, wishful thinking...the list is long, and we;re all guilty of them from time to time. The trick is to recognize them and try to eliminate them when possible. It's a very large part of the reason the scientific method involved independant confirmation and peer review - even the smartest of people can come to false conclusions based on fallacious reasoning and bias.

If at any point my responses to you have been overly acidic, then I apologize.

As to your core question though, as to whether life could form in space without being on a comet or an asteroid or other body...

That's very difficult to answer, but all evidence I'm aware of points to "not likely." We've barely touched the surface of abiogenesis research, so it's difficult to really pinpoint how life could plausibly form in space. More reasonable explanations for life existing in space would be volcanic eruptions that launch rock into space, possibly carrying living organisms with it (assuming they survive the trip!). But without a body to exist on, actual vacuum-inhabiting organisms are just this side of impossible. Space is just too empty - living things require food of some sort, some form of input of matter to allow growth and reproduction in addition to whatever form of energy they use. Take aplant for example. Photosynthesis is along the lines of what you'd look for in direct energy absorption...but the plant still requires CO2 and other compounds in order to actually photosynthesize, let alone what it needs to add mass and grow and reproduce. The density of molecules in space is extremely low - it makes our air look as dense as diamond in comparison. Most of the molecules found in space are nothing but H2 molecules, with some H2O thrown in. Free-floating organic compounds with the required Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon are far more rare. Frankly, any organism that bears any semblance to the forms of life we've seen so far would simply starve, or be completely dormant while in space. If such a thing were discovered, "unbelievably shocked" would be an understatement for my reaction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by howdoideletethis, posted 06-18-2009 2:47 PM howdoideletethis has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 29 (512529)
06-18-2009 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 5:18 PM


It seems you don't like comments that contradict your pet belief ...
Hi again TristanMC, having a bit of an altitude adjustment problem, it seems.

Message 19

And yes RAZD, It could be because of the point of view, but apparently you didn't watch the video.

Actually, I watched it twice, the second time to confirm my impressions left from the first one, with the overhype music turned off (let's one be a bit more objective about the evidence).

Things wouldn't appear to instantly reverse directions on the surface of the earth. It might curve, or hook, but not completely reverse and travel backwards on it's path. It might curve, or hook, but not completely reverse and travel backwards on it's path.

You are familiar with the orbital problem of planets for the geocentric model of the universe aren't you? The ancients knew about the apparent "retrograde" orbit of planets, and it is one of the reasons that the geocentric model was discarded.

But those are over enormous distances and over a large amount of time, this takes place over less than a second.

Curiously, they happen at speeds relative to their orbital periods. In low orbit around the earth the relative periods are much smaller than those of jupiter etc etc etc around the sun.

You can also have such particles in highly eccentric orbits with their perigee matching the space shuttle orbital height, making their apparent speed much higher to those in the shuttle. This would be similar to seeing comets move one way across the sky on approach to the sun and then move the other way on their departure.

Perhaps you would like to make a mathematical model of the orbits to check this and see if you can prove me wrong. After all, this is what a skeptic would do to eliminate possible explanations before arriving at the "I don't know what it is, so it must be aliens" explanation.

And if you really want to focus on my anus, RAZD, you can send me a message. I get the feeling these forums are more for degradation than discussion.

Strangely, you were the one who introduced the topic. Interestingly I don't do private messages with board members, but prefer the honesty of open posting of opinions, as I feel this is a much better way to arrive at productive discussions rather than degrading diatribes. That way any degrading diatribes can be brought to admins attention while those that aren't can focus on the topic.

Sorry for that completely useless analogy, I'm just a moron.

Intriguingly, this board frowns on calling people morons, rather than focusing on the issues. For the record I don't think you are a moron, although you may be ignorant of some basic science and fairly gullible\innocent in certain ways. So am I, it's part and parcel of being a human being.

Part of learning is finding out when to discard invalid concepts, and this is normally difficult if you have invested some personal belief in the concepts involved, and find you need to revise your thinking. The process is called cognitive dissonance.

Yes, I do have better things to do, seeing as this is only my fourth post, unlike you're 700+ (no telling how many are useless replies).

Actually lyx2no is a rare combination of two people, with lyx2no2 inheriting the name (and a number of posts) from an uncle after the uncle died. Fascinatingly this uncle did a pretty good job of educating the new lyx2no on how to make cogent posts, and how to back them up with substantiating evidence, rather than just off the cuff comments.

Except for lyx2no, he gets no thanks.

No need to be petty when you could just say nothing and accomplish as much.

Alright well I suppose I have quenched this curiosity. Thanks for the input!

The question is, have you learned anything? If you haven't learned anything then I apologize for our wasting our time on you.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by howdoideletethis, posted 06-18-2009 5:18 PM howdoideletethis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2612 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 27 of 29 (512555)
06-18-2009 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by howdoideletethis
06-18-2009 5:34 PM


Re: Bad Attitude Control
TMC writes:

So try not to be too critical guys, I enjoy having only one anus.

So you come to a debater site and imply that people who are critical of your flights of fancy are anuses.

lyx writes:

If you had 44 of them you could maneuver like the space shuttle.

Which ties in nicely with your space evolution and shuttle film in that its rather silly and the shuttle has 44 control thrusters.

TMC writes:

And if I had 44 anuses I wouldn't be able to maneuver like the ship because I'd be exposed in space and I would die. So ha.

"So ha.", I assumed, showed good humor.

lyx writes:

So much for using ones imagination. How do you know what would happen if you had 44 anuses? Have you ever had 44 anuses? 44 anuses might just be the evolutionary jump that mankind is waiting for to get off world and colonize the Universe. But not with your attitude, TMC.

You ask that we use our imaginations and extend ourselves into your flight of fancy. I did. As silly as my statement sounds it is genuinely less silly then your own, and it is on topic to boot. IF circles had pointy bits THEN armchairs make the best hats. A nonsensical conclusion to a nonsensical proposition cannot be falsified.

TMC writes:

Except for lyx2no, he gets no thanks.

If you weren't wincing at my poking of your sacred cow you might have noticed I made several dozen legitimate points.

lyx writes:

I see ice crystals. I see ice crystals suddenly appear as the flakes rotate from edge on to face on in the sun light. I see others suddenly brighten as they move out of the shadow of the shuttle. I see the motion of the camera in the jiggles and curves made by the flakes moving in straight lines. I see crystals being hit by exhaust from maneuvering jets.

But let us suppose for a few minutes that they are not ice crystals. The first thing that comes to mind is that space must be chock full of them. But that is contradicted by the grill of the shuttle not being chock full of them. So maybe there aren't so many of them, but they're drawn to the shuttle like moths to a porch light. But that would mean that they can move of their own volition. As space has no substrate to press against they must move about like little rockets. Setting aside the workings of their little rockets, from whence in the near vacuum of space do they get the matter that they would need to eject from their tiny sphincters? I'd think any kind of matter they'd be able to collect would be better spent on survival. Deep sea creatures don't galavant all over the place to satisfy their interests in bathyscaphes, but sit very patiently waiting for a rabbit to blunder past. And there are a lot more deep sea rabbits to choose from then there are deep space particles to blow out ones a… sphincter.

I suppose I should also have mentioned that I see lighted objects from behind the camera reflected in the porthole through which some of the photos were taken, but that would be too prosaic.

TMC writes:

But like I said, the video isn't important, just food for thought.

lyx writes:

But not too much thought as we don't want to take the fun out of it.

Why don't you just come out and say it. "Hi guy, let's uncritically entertain my flights of fancy. Tell me how awesome the things I think are as I weave a Universe out of whole cloth."

lyx writes:

Do you really not have something better to do?

I nearly panic when I think of the godzillion things I don't know and so desperately want to know, and here comes another thinking, human mind and the only thing it wants is conformation of its party favor natural history.

TMC writes:

Yes, I do have better things to do, seeing as this is only my fourth post, unlike you're 700+ (no telling how many are useless replies).

I can only take credit for the last 300 or so. I'm sure there may be a few worthless ones in there that fell to my smarty-pants inclinations. But you failed to note the wisdom :rolleyes: I imparted in this thread seeing instead my dagger in the side of your cow. Plus, school's out for summer, my stupid, thieving, pseudo-gangsta', cousin is wrecking havoc on the whole family — meaning my mum's in Baltamore helping her sister-in-law hold it together, so I've had near zero parental supervision since Easter coming out of an environment where my mum used to read and criticize every word I'd post before I went to bed, and so if I used a bit of my new found liberties to bust one of your nuts I consider it a learning experience in social dominance. (But I still haven't drawn up the courage to use swear words, yet.)

However, I'm here more to learn then I am to teach, so I listen (lurk) a lot. I fully agree that two of the things I need to learn are diplomacy and suffering fools. Like, that wasn't one of my finer moments, was it? :o

I've even learned something from you. 44 attitude control thrusters is not enough to make one able to function in unaccustomed realms. A thicker skin is a must.

Edited by lyx2no, : Grammar.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by howdoideletethis, posted 06-18-2009 5:34 PM howdoideletethis has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2612 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 28 of 29 (512556)
06-18-2009 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
06-18-2009 6:38 PM


Re: It seems you don't like comments that contradict your pet belief ...
Actually lyx2no is a rare combination of two people, with lyx2no2 inheriting the name (and a number of posts) from an uncle after the uncle died. Fascinatingly this uncle did a pretty good job of educating the new lyx2no on how to make cogent posts, and how to back them up with substantiating evidence, rather than just off the cuff comments.
Thank you, RAZD, but I sorta, gotta admit TMC has more of a point then I'd admit to him. Especially lately.

AbE: And you made me cry.

Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 29 of 29 (512558)
06-19-2009 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by lyx2no
06-18-2009 11:29 PM


humility and the ability to acknowledge when you are wrong
Hi lyx2no2,

However, I'm here more to learn then I am to teach, ...

We all come here to learn. Those that think they come here to teach have the most to learn.

I fully agree that two of the things I need to learn are diplomacy and suffering fools. Like, that wasn't one of my finer moments, was it?

Learning humility and the ability to acknowledge when you are wrong are hard things to learn, especially when it comes to pet concepts.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

Such ridicule only serves its purpose when there are distinct ideas based on reason to contrast them to.

I see ice crystals. I see ice crystals suddenly appear as the flakes rotate from edge on to face on in the sun light. I see others suddenly brighten as they move out of the shadow of the shuttle. I see the motion of the camera in the jiggles and curves made by the flakes moving in straight lines. I see crystals being hit by exhaust from maneuvering jets.

Another good explanation for the observed phenomena. It is easy to forget the conditions under which the video/s were taken, and view them as being from a static, earth based camera, typical of the mundane views we are accustomed to, rather than the dynamic platform in a constantly being adjusted orbit.

Plus, school's out for summer, my stupid, thieving, pseudo-gangsta', cousin is wrecking havoc on the whole family — meaning my mum's in Baltamore helping her sister-in-law hold it together, so I've had near zero parental supervision since Easter coming out of an environment where my mum used to read and criticize every word I'd post before I went to bed, and so if I used a bit of my new found liberties to bust one of your nuts I consider it a learning experience in social dominance.

It could also be a learning experience on control and the responsibility that comes with freedom.

(But I still haven't drawn up the courage to use swear words, yet.)

Curiously, I have found no need for them.

Which ties in nicely with your space evolution and shuttle film in that its rather silly and the shuttle has 44 control thrusters.

And you teach me as well. I had thought the number 44 was bizarre (42 I could understand).

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/080219-sts122-landing-prep.html

quote:
The shuttle has a total of 44 thrusters that make up its reaction control system.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by lyx2no, posted 06-18-2009 11:29 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

  
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