What Science is NOT

Chara,

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Think about this for a minute. Zeke's prophecy was so precise he predicted the future use of Tyre ... a place for spreading nets. How can all this be explained? How could Zeke have made such an impressive prediction? Was he just really lucky?

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Why would having a coastal town as being predicted to be a place of fisherman be so great a prophecy? Lucky? Hardly, he would have been very UNLUCKY if no-one used the port for fishing at one point or another. Mundane.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by mark24:
Chara,

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Think about this for a minute. Zeke's prophecy was so precise he predicted the future use of Tyre ... a place for spreading nets. How can all this be explained? How could Zeke have made such an impressive prediction? Was he just really lucky?

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Why would having a coastal town as being predicted to be a place of fisherman be so great a prophecy? Lucky? Hardly, he would have been very UNLUCKY if no-one used the port for fishing at one point or another. Mundane.

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Mark

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that's only one part of the prophesy Mark . down to detail i think is what chara was getting at. the fact that it was scraped off the earth into the sea is pretty impressive.------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by mark24:
Mark:
And you guys wouldn't be guilty of the opposite, would you? It hasn't come to pass, *yet*.

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The prophecy that Tyre would never be rebuilt was wrong.

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"Over the course of the last two and a half thousand years the coastline has changed slightly, so that the island is now connected to the mainland. As you can see, the (ex)island site and mainland parts are heavily built up.

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Ezekiel said that Tyre would never be rebuilt and would never be found. Can you find a city in the picture? Did Ezekiel's prophecy come true, even if we grant that he was really talking about Alexander the Great when he mentioned Nebuchadnezzar."

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i don't understand what you mean... i haven't and probably won't argue about a bible prophecy that hasn't come to pass, so there's no way your accusation could even apply to me... as for tyre, the island city was at least a half mile offshore, is that the "slight" change you were talking about? nebbie destroyed the mainland city, not the island city... the picture you posted, is that supposed to be the island city?

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Originally posted by forgiven:

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Originally posted by mark24:
Mark:
And you guys wouldn't be guilty of the opposite, would you? It hasn't come to pass, *yet*.

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The prophecy that Tyre would never be rebuilt was wrong.

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"Over the course of the last two and a half thousand years the coastline has changed slightly, so that the island is now connected to the mainland. As you can see, the (ex)island site and mainland parts are heavily built up.

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Ezekiel said that Tyre would never be rebuilt and would never be found. Can you find a city in the picture? Did Ezekiel's prophecy come true, even if we grant that he was really talking about Alexander the Great when he mentioned Nebuchadnezzar."

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i don't understand what you mean... i haven't and probably won't argue about a bible prophecy that hasn't come to pass, so there's no way your accusation could even apply to me... as for tyre, the island city was at least a half mile offshore, is that the "slight" change you were talking about? nebbie destroyed the mainland city, not the island city... the picture you posted, is that supposed to be the island city?

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From what i understand, Nebuchadnezzar began the assault on Tyre and besieged the mainland city for thirteen years (585-573bc). Many of the people fled during this long attack, to the island city, and nebud. could not attack them there without a fleet. ;(
Alexander (during his campaign against Persia, 332bc) used the 'debris' from the destruction of the mainland city to build a half mile long, 200 ft wide causeway to the island in order to occupy it("...and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water....." Ezk 26:12)
The fishing town Sur currently sits upon part of the island and the causeway, but the mainland city site remains abandoned------------------
*******sleeper********

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Originally posted by graedek:
The fishing town Sur currently sits upon part of the island and the causeway, but the mainland city site remains abandoned

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and, i take it, undiscovered?

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Originally posted by forgiven:

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Originally posted by graedek:
The fishing town Sur currently sits upon part of the island and the causeway, but the mainland city site remains abandoned

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and, i take it, undiscovered?

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'bare as a rock' you might say------------------
*******sleeper********

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Originally posted by forgiven:
the present discussion, can the bible be proven to be the word of God, probably can never be proven by this methodology... why? because, as the bible says (paraphrasing here), those who don't want to see (use inductive and/or deductive logic) won't see... they "hide the truth" from themselves... this means that the logic steps might be left out or denied...

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Well, no wonder you didn't notice Funkie's condescending attitude.

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if the simplest explanation which accounts for all the facts is usually the right one, how can anyone deny the existence of a creator?

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Christians tend to take the superficial view of Occam's razor. "Well, God did it is the simplest explanation" Wrong. God did it is no more explanation than "Aliens did it"------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Chara:
Obviously, Ezekiel's prophecy would have been laughed at. If he had been trying to "make up" a prophecy, he probably would not have chosen Tyre (speculation tho' logical).

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Sorry but no. Tyre had already been seiged taken lost regained for centuries. You are not paying attention.

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Note that the prophecy says that many nations, not just Babylon will come against the city.

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Note that pretty much anyone alive near Tyre at the time would know this, since many nations had been coming for it for centuries.

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So, get this, the bridge that Alex built is the one that Zeke predicted .... "they will destroy the walls and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock."

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Where do you see a bridge in there?

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Remember, I said that Zeke predicted that many nations would come against Tyre?

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And remember how this very thing had already been happening for centuries?

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Zeke's prophecy was so precise he predicted the future use of Tyre ... a place for spreading nets.

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Yes, Tyre and every other fishing village on the planet.

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How can all this be explained? How could Zeke have made such an impressive prediction? Was he just really lucky?

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It isn't luck. He hasn't said anything unusual.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by forgiven:
but it's one of those that doubters (john appears to be such) will be able to point to and say, "yeah well maybe it's that way *now* but that doesn't mean it won't be rebuilt and destroyed many more times"

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Doubter? I am asking for the same evidence you would request, if for example, someone told you that John Edward revealed some startling information on late night TV.And you've got that wrong. Tyre is still with us. Prophecy failed, unless of course you want to claim that it may be here *now* but that doesn't mean it won't be destroyed and rebuilt many more times.

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cause then someone would just do what i wrote above, abandon induction leading to deduction and say "it hasn't been rebuilt *yet*"

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What? Abandon induction leading to deduction?

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see, if a person is intent on disbelieving a thing, that thing will be disbelieved...

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It works much better in reverse actually.

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keeping an open mind and allowing our (dare i say God-given?) reasoning ability to function is the key...

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Does this involve dismissing the 'doubters'?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
that's only one part of the prophesy Mark . down to detail i think is what chara was getting at. the fact that it was scraped off the earth into the sea is pretty impressive.

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Funkie darling,This is pretty common practise for the time. Captured cities could very well end up destroyed. And dumping the debris into the sea adds a bit of flair but that's about it. You can't make a very convincing case for prophecy with prophecies that predict stuff that stands a good chance of occurring. Tyre was constantly at war, and was eventually going to lose and lose badly.But remember, Tyre wasn't ever supposed to come back. And it did-- repeatedly.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 11-13-2002]

Sorry to jump in here. I confess to not knowing squat about biblical prophesy or apologetics. However, I do know something of military and Palestinian history (in both of which Tyre figures fairly prominently). Am I misreading this thread? Tyre is supposed to have been destroyed and abandoned at some point?IIRC, Tyre was originally founded around the 13th century BCE, and the city has been under continuous occupation to the present day. It's been conquered and reconquered, destroyed and rebuilt literally dozens of times. It's mentioned quite importantly in the Alexandrian conquests (as someone said), but also the Seljuk conquest, the Fatimid wars, the Crusades (last controlled by Godfrey), the Mongol invasion, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman conquest, etc, and even modern Lebanese history. There is currently a city in Lebanon - still using the ancient harbor - by the same name. Is this the same city you're talking about? If not, where was the "biblical" Tyre in relation to the historical city?Sorry for the digression - after all, there could be more than one city by that name. However, I find it difficult to believe there was more than one important city/city-state in the same region by the same name. Inquiring minds want to know.

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Sorry to jump in here.

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I'll let it slide this time

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Tyre is supposed to have been destroyed and abandoned at some point?

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The issue under discussion is a prophecy made by Ezekial about the destruction of Tyre. So, yes, you are reading it right. Ezekial predicted the destruction of the city. It is all very melodramatic. This, as you point out, hasn't happened. Maybe we should give it a few years.

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Tyre was originally founded around the 13th century BCE, and the city has been under continuous occupation to the present day. It's been conquered and reconquered, destroyed and rebuilt literally dozens of times. It's mentioned quite importantly in the Alexandrian conquests (as someone said), but also the Seljuk conquest, the Fatimid wars, the Crusades (last controlled by Godfrey), the Mongol invasion, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman conquest, etc, and even modern Lebanese history. There is currently a city in Lebanon - still using the ancient harbor - by the same name. Is this the same city you're talking about? If not, where was the "biblical" Tyre in relation to the historical city?

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As far as I can tell this is the same city. What is ironic is that the NT mentions Tyre as a functioning community, thereby rubbing salt in old Ezekial's prophetic wounds.Sorry for the digression - after all, there could be more than one city by that name. However, I find it difficult to believe there was more than one important city/city-state in the same region by the same name. Inquiring minds want to know. [/B][/QUOTE]------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Forgiven,The current city of Tyre sits atop phoenician remains, so it is hardly "undiscovered".The Encyclopedia Britannica says 'Excavations have uncovered remains of the Greco-Roman, Crusader, Arab, and Byzantine civilizations, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period lie beneath the present town", hence Tyre has been rebuilt. It matters not a jot if the entire city was rebuilt, if there was a town built that overlaps the ancient site, then it was reasonably "rebuilt". Regardless, the mainland side of the site is built upon (as can be seen in the photo), & has phoenician artifacts beneath it, ergo, the mainland city has been built upon.Was the city built on the same site as the old city?Yes, it was.Have the Phoenician remains been discovered?Yes, the new town sits on top of it.The prophecy is wrong on these two points.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

Okay you didn't like that prophesy. At least john's starting to like me i noticed. lol.It would appear tyre was not the only city to be prophesied angainst and be destroyed. Memphis-Thebes, Ninevah and Jerusalem are among these. (i'll get more if you want john, just trying to make sure i back myself up a bit) Why were all these cities destroyed? They were destroyed because they worshipped strange gods, and these gods flourished among them. It would seem God's threats are not to be taken lightly.Ezekiel 30
13 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:" 'I will destroy the idols
and put an end to the images in Memphis. [1]
No longer will there be a prince in Egypt,
and I will spread fear throughout the land.
14 I will lay waste Upper Egypt, [2]
set fire to Zoan
and inflict punishment on Thebes. [3]
15 I will pour out my wrath on Pelusium, [4]
the stronghold of Egypt,
and cut off the hordes of Thebes.
16 I will set fire to Egypt;
Pelusium will writhe in agony.
Thebes will be taken by storm;
Memphis will be in constant distress.Memphis;
In 670 b.c. memphis was captured by Esarhaddon (Assyrians), and again in 525 b.c. by Cambyses (Persians), the city of memphis managed to somewhat rebuild itself and restore some of it's greatness. At the time it was said to be the second largest city in egypt, second only to Alexandria the port city (this was around 64 b.c. - 23 A.D). However when egypt was invaded and conquered by the muslims somwhere after 600 A.D the caliph Umar (who reigned from 634-644 A.D)ordered the muslim invaders not to settle in Alexandria. Because of this it set up camp near the old army camp that had defended memphis. Over time this muslim military base became Cairo. As Cairo became more populated those who still dwelt in memphis began to move into Cairo. Memphis at one time was considered a grand city. "While on Arab traveler of the 13th century, Abdul-Latif, declared Memphis to be a 'collection of wonderful works,'" (quote from Eric V. Snow). Today however if you were to go to the site where this "collection of wonderful works," once was you will find no such works. Seems out of it's convieniently close location to the new city Cairo it provided an exellent quarry for construction of the new capital and hardly a stone has been left above ground in Memphis.The idols of Memphis are no more as good ol Zeke predicted (by the way i like that name chara tickled my funnies)Thebes;
Now Thebes was the worship capital of the god Amon as well as the capital of Egypt for hundreds of years. Thebes managed to survive it's destruction by the Babylonians, Persians and Assyrians. (rebuilding each time) Again it was destroyed by Cleopatra's grandfather in a 3 year attack that ended in Thebes being sacked and burned. Once again Thebes rebuilt. However during the reign of Rome (the emperor Agustus 27 b.c.-14 A.D)Cornelius Gallus delivered the finishing blow to this once great city. They were destroyed for taking a stand against the taxation of Rome. After this destruction Thebes did not rebuild. A handful of small villages (9 i've read) rebuilt around there and the impressive ruins stand there to this day. Many of the idols of Thebes still stand.Ezekiel prophesied that God would "cut of the multitude of Thebes" and "Thebes would be breached" So here we see that Thebes has much more violent history and end than Memphis.So fitting with Ezekiels prophesy Thebes is cut off and wiped out only stones remain. Memphis is merely "distressed daily" having only lost it's idols while it's people simply just wandered off.Had Ezekiel made the mistake of switching the two cities he could be called wrong in a snap. If he is only making wild guesses, Wow! however i find it easier to believe he had some help from God.Ezekiel predicts this fall of a very longstanding powerful nation.Ezekiel 29
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, [1] the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nationsNow since then Egypt has taken a beating from just about everyone the British, French, Turks, Arabs, Rome, Greece and Persia. Egypt has become an insugnificant poverty stricken 3rd world country that has also been beaten 4 times in the last 50 or so years by Israel.Ezekiel 30:13
"No longer will there be a prince in Egypt"The princes of Egypt being the pharoh's. The line of the princes of Egypt ended in 341 b.c under Persian rule. So again good ol Zeke gottem right. way to go Zeke.so anyway here's some more prophesy to chew on and discuss------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by Chara:
Obviously, Ezekiel's prophecy would have been laughed at. If he had been trying to "make up" a prophecy, he probably would not have chosen Tyre (speculation tho' logical).

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Sorry but no. Tyre had already been seiged taken lost regained for centuries. You are not paying attention.

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i'm sure this isn't one of those condescending attitude remarks you hate so much...

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
that's only one part of the prophesy Mark . down to detail i think is what chara was getting at. the fact that it was scraped off the earth into the sea is pretty impressive.

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Funkie darling,

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This is pretty common practise for the time. Captured cities could very well end up destroyed. And dumping the debris into the sea adds a bit of flair but that's about it. You can't make a very convincing case for prophecy with prophecies that predict stuff that stands a good chance of occurring. Tyre was constantly at war, and was eventually going to lose and lose badly.

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But remember, Tyre wasn't ever supposed to come back. And it did-- repeatedly.

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now john sweetie,ok, someone here (maybe me) seems confused... the island city of tyre is at issue here, not the mainland city... someone said the coastline had changed and present day tyre sits atop the old island city (which was half a mile offshore and only accessed by alex via a causeway he built from the remains of the mainland city)so the question is, what sits where the island city of tyre used to sit? is it, as chara and funkie and graedek have said, a bare rock where boats anchor? or is there a city there now?the biblical prophecy, if i understand it (and it's more than possible that i don't) spoke of nebbie destroying the mainland city and the island city being attacked, rebuilt, attacked, etc until it was finally destroyed, never to be rebuilt... i think *that's* what's at question here... has that prophecy come to pass?