The Impossibility Of The Flood

Hi ICANT, Right. But that was the point, or my point; it would take a miracle for such a tale to have happened. And yet planets, and black holes, and super massive black holes, and supernova (real massive things) happen naturally.Yet a flood on a single planet, something that just needs a lot of rain, requires the supernatural, a god, and a miraculous event. That sounds poetic and I get what you mean, but I'm sure you were born by natural means and conceived naturally too.But that you feel it took a miracle of god for you to be alive today shows the arrogance of belief.- Oni

Dr Adequate, According to the Biblical record, often God effects his purposes via what we regard as natural events. When he wanted to punish Israel, his nation for idolitry etc, he didn't usually zap them directly himself. He raised up enemy nations for that specific purpose on occasion. Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon was an example Syria and Egypt were others.Germany was a "natural" agent in effecting the return of Israel to their homeland in order to fulfill the end time prophecies of the prophecied messianic kingdom in Israel.As for the flood, the natural effect of a meteor hit the magnitude of the K T event strike would (naturally) cool the atmosphere. We know there was this meteor event at some time. You can fault me for my reasons of rejecting the dating of the event but you can't fault me for applying the event to triggering an alleged flood by an alleged condensing of an alleged warm vapor canopy.What I'm saying is that you can call the canopy and the flood a myth, but you can't deny that such a meteor strike would not naturally cause the warm vapor to condense and rain to earth.According to the Biblical record which depicts a flood and warmer climate, God is an intelligent designer being who brings famine, rain, tornadoes, earthquakes, and all sorts of natural disasters to effect his purposes and manage the planet. Again you can call it all myth, but you can't separate what you call nature from him if he exists as the majority of people believe he does.We ID creationists must apply the same observed events, fossil record, historical record, etc to argue for our premises and theses that evolutionists apply to theirs, though our methodologies in application and interpretation may differ from theirs.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Yeah, yeah. God hides. Why does God hide? Why? Until you show your working, I have every reason to doubt it.Incidentally, why doesn't the Bible mention the meteor strike> The Bible says nothing about a warmer climate. Well, you should, but obviously you don't. Hence, for example, your ability to pretend that dinosaurs are the only extinct reptiles, a feat of blindness to the fossil record so total that I'm at a loss to see how you can manage it.

You are off by about 63 million years. Yes, that is something we can fault you for.You are cherry picking from billions of years, looking for events that you can attribute to this flood.But your story doesn't form a consistent whole. You have to ignore too much data, and manipulate too many events in your efforts to support the flood story.The "minor" problem of a 63 million year difference in dating is one example.Sorry, it just doesn't fly.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

I went over the original posts in this thread, but not in enough detail to see if they attempted to look at the original syllogism as I now see it. So if not, let's see if this reconfiguration makes more sense.It's not hard to see that the main claim of biblical inerrancy is circular. Here's how we start:If God exists, then the Bible is true.
God exists.
Therefore the Bible is true.However, there's a problem in the orignal premise. By God they have to mean the God Described in the Bible and No Other God. Affirming that Brahman exists does nothing for their argument. So what we really have once we are more explicit with our sufficient condition is:If the God Described in the Bible and No Other God (GDBNOG) exists, then the Bible is true.
GDBNOG exists, etc.Of course, here's where the circularity comes in:GDBNOG exists.
How do you know?
Because the Bible says so, and the Bible is True and Accurate in All Particulars.
How do you know BTAAP?
Because GDBNOG exists.As I see it, what fundamentalist Christians tend to do, seeing as they've got perfect circularity to work with, is to reverse sufficient and necessary conditions in the first step.If BTAAP, then GDBNOG exists.
BTAAP.
Therefore GDBNOG exists.What most Christians do in forming a flood argument (and in forming a lot of other apologetic arguments) is to begin with the premise BTAAP. After all if you ask them why they believe the Flood story is true, the response is almost always that BTAAP. Thus:If BTAAP, then the Flood Story is Literally True.So combining our two statements, we get:If BTAAP, then GDBANOG exists and FSLT.And the contrapositive:If FSLT - not! or GDBNOG exists - not!, then BTAAP - not!In other words, in the contrapositive the negation of either statement is sufficient to negate the consequent. Or, in much clearer words: If the Flood story is not literally true, then the God of the Bible does not exist.That seems to me to be the tree that these folks are hanging their hat on. Their whole belief in God really does depend on belief in the Flood story.Now, bringing this all around to Dr A's original post, my thought is that since it's easy to demonstrate convincingly that that indeed the Flood as described never happened, Christians are faced with two choices. Once choice is to deny the science outright , and/or try to force science through a nuclear firestorm of misrepresentation, fuzzy thinking and denial of the obvious in order to claim that science actually supports their position. That seems to be Buz's approach. Or they can choose door number two, following ICANT's example, and just shrug away the evidence and claim a miracle. Dismissing facts by calling on miracles has become quite more and more unpopular and unsatisfying ever since we stopped living in mud huts and drowning cats to ward off the plague. Thus, the ever-entertaining spectacle of Christian Fundie's bug-eyed crazy attempts at "scientific" explanations of what science clearly denies ever happened.Whew. Let's see how many mistakes I made in that argument.

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I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John LydonWhat's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

So, Germany was an agent of a loving, just god when it slaughtered 6 million jews.What kind of a sick fuck does it take to not only believe is such an asshole but to actually worship it? Buz, you are lower than vermin vomit.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

It strikes me that this apparent dichotomy is really a thoroughly self-consistent pattern, if you accept a view that the fundie position is essentially nothing more than a denial of science. In effect, the sole point of all fundie assertions is to say that science is wrong, no matter what science happens to be saying.So when science says, "Based on the evidence, the global flood didn't happen; countless supernatural interventions, contravening all sorts of unbreakable physical laws, would be required in order for the biblical flood story to be an event that actually occurred," the fundie has to respond, "No, we can explain how the flood happened without all that supernatural stuff, without breaking physical laws."And when science describes the diversity of life, the basic structures of organisms, or any other directly observable aspect of reality in terms that provide a concise account for its provenance through purely natural processes, requiring no purposive supernatural intervention, the fundie must respond, "No, these things could not have come to be the way they are purely by themselves / by chance / by accident, ..." and so on.This also seems to fit in with the general property that religious belief is founded on various negations: the notion of God serves to explain things that cannot be explained, answer questions that cannot be answered, do things that cannot be done (like take care of you after you're dead, know you before you are born, etc). It all ends up being sort of oxymoronic.

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autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

But what's really scary is: that's not even the worst of it, when you follow through on the implications of this sort of "End Times" world-view. If I recall/understand it correctly, I think there's also this part about expecting a global nuclear holocaust -- and even welcoming it -- because that fits some imaginative interpretation of how the bible describes the Second Coming of Christ.That's got to be the acme for sickness. If these people were just suicidal, that would be sad, but to be looking forward to global annihilation -- that's truly, unspeakably insane.

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autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

Hi onifre, No, human birth is a natural birth that is controled by laws.But according to the doctors I was dead for 3 hours and 20 minutes. When I spoke and a whole lot of activity began to take place 61 days later I walked out of the hospital.You call it whatever you want to call it.I call it a miracle. BTW the doctor did too.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

quote:

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We ID creationists must apply the same observed events, fossil record, historical record, etc to argue for our premises and theses that evolutionists apply to theirs, though our methodologies in application and interpretation may differ from theirs.

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No, you don't. You ignore evidence that you don't like altogether. Some other evidence you reject by making up crazy excuses. Hell, you even make up implausible excuses to "explain" why your main supporting evidence doesn't support your claims and STILL expect to be taken seriously.The best that you can say is that you make a feeble pretense at rationality. And then childishly whine about how unfair and biased your opponent are for looking at the real evidence, for rejecting your obvious fabrications, for catching you in your misrepresentations

Where are we going here? Should we be going there?Adminnemooseus

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So, Germany was an agent of a loving, just god when it slaughtered 6 million jews.

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While Buz sometimes manage to say decent things don't forget that he's the guy who twists Ezekiel 35 into a prophecy that GOd will massacre the Palestinian Arabs And then says that it should be counted as a fulfilled prophecy because he likes it so much. Can't get much sicker than that.

An event the magnitude of a ww flood triggered by an event the magnitude of such a meteor strike atributed to the K T event implies a major sudden change in the makeup of the planet and it's atmoshere, not calculated by dating methodology.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

How do a meteor strike and a flood affect the various dating methods such that they are all wrong and yet still agree with each other? Show your math.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

You haven't a clue regarding Jehovah, god of a ww flood who wiped out the world's population and who establishes ultimate justice upon earth, Subbie. Yah, he's a god of love, but as well a god of justice and wrath upon evil.No sane person would deny the presence of evil upon earth. It's an observed phenomena and evidence of what to you?It behooves Jehovah, the god of the universe, if he be true, who established certain laws for his earth creatures, to do what's best suits his purposes for the ultimate good of both planet earth and the universe at large, factoring in the freedom of choice of creatures like Satan and the rebellious angels which oppose the kingdom of Jehovah on earth.It was the forces of evil which first deceived mankind in the garden and deceived the people who ultimately caused Jehovah to wipe out the world's population in the flood and to allow Satan's agent, Hitler, to effect the restoration of his nation for the prophesied coming messianic kingdom on earth which will extablish final millenial peace upon the planet.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.