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Author Topic:   Evolution is antithetical to racism
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16018
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 211 of 238 (426864)
10-08-2007 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Chiroptera
10-08-2007 10:32 PM


Except that it wasn't. It was based on ordinary animal breeding techniques that has been practiced for thousands of years.

Remember that CTD is lying, and that the article he quoted from Huxley was rejecting eugenics.

Yes, it's true that eugenics is based on animal breeding, while you mention it, but Huxley was arguing against it.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 14010
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 212 of 238 (426915)
10-09-2007 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by CTD
10-08-2007 10:19 PM


Just so that we are absolutely clear the issue under discussion is whether Marx actually proved that evolution was inherently racist. I state this up front because CTD already has a record of misrepresenting this point.

quote:

Ha! Enough double talk. It'd be on-topic until I did it, and then it'd be 'off-topic' again.

I am sorry that you find it necessary to pretend that others are as dishonest as you. The fact is that your claim was false. It had never been declared off-topic.

quote:

But in case nobody noticed, I said I had no interest in repeating his work, now didn't I?

You've no interest in showing that this alleged work even existed. And that's because it didn't.

quote:

At this point, it doesn't contribute much, if anything, to demonstrate commonly-known facts to people who we all know will continue to deny them. That's just not how I define 'progress'.

It is not a "commonly-known" fact at all - nobody else appears to know it, and you have provided no reason to think that it is a fact. Demonstrating that it is a fact would be progress. The reason you do not do it is because it is not a fact - and you know that.

quote:

No. The opposition is simply looking to draw this out. They hope I'll make a mistake and they'll be able to attack my credibility. They hope 3rd party readers will be convinced that truth is determined by how many people wish a thing to be so.

You have no credibility. And you're the one dragging this out in the hope that third parties won't notice that you can't support your claims.

quote:

Until some flaw can be found in Huxley's logic, I don't see that there's much to argue about. The only flaw I've found is that it's based upon evolutionism...

You see, you're already trying to misrepresent the issue. It's about Marx, not Huxley.


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AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 213 of 238 (426925)
10-09-2007 4:02 AM


Up the quality
The debate in this thread is suffering, frustration is resulting and Dr A, and CTD have been suspended (the former for disrespect, the latter for misrepresentation and failure to support or withdraw an assertion).

Let's raise the bar for the last 100 posts or so, please.

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.


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Admin
Director
Posts: 12554
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 214 of 238 (426984)
10-09-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by CTD
10-08-2007 10:19 PM


Hi CTD,

I'd like to again encourage you to keep your focus on the topic of discussion and not on your perceptions of dishonesty or machinations on the part of those you're debating with. If you'd like to tackle the debate from the perspective that those you're debating with are not debating in good faith, then please propose a thread to discuss this.

Because this pattern has been going on for some time now, if AdminModuous agrees then I think your suspension should be extended to a longer time period, perhaps a week.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Chiroptera
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Posts: 6431
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 215 of 238 (462054)
03-29-2008 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Chiroptera
09-26-2007 7:33 PM


Can I pat myself on the back?
Some time ago, when we were discussing the alleged role of the theory of evolution in racism and eugenics, I wrote:

This is pretty much mundane animal breeding as it has been practiced for thousands of years, well before Darwin or the discovery of evolution. Animal and plant breeders already knew that systematic extirpation of the superfluous will result in improving the breed.

PZ Meyers, someone far smarter than I, is making the same point on Pharyngula. Maybe this point should be added to the arsenal against the "evolution leads to eugenics" argument.


There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut
This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16018
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 216 of 238 (462069)
03-30-2008 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Chiroptera
03-29-2008 10:35 PM


Re: Can I pat myself on the back?
I'm way ahead of him ... see my article on eugenics.
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karenadams
Junior Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 07-03-2009


Message 217 of 238 (513979)
07-03-2009 1:41 AM


Re:
I think not only the colored people face the racism but whites also face it in one form or the other.Me being an English faced it once in my high school as i was pretty passionate about Rap Music.As blacks are mostly involved in it so some times i faced a racial attack.But it does not affected me as I am linked with my uncle's Anti-Racism Organisation so i know exactly how to avoid such things to happen.

Edited by AdminNosy, : Removed link that appears to me to be spam


    
Faith
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Posts: 28561
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 218 of 238 (830579)
04-03-2018 12:52 PM


Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
I wanted a place to put a simple observation and this seems to be the place. I recently watched the Netflix film "Mudbound" -- I highly recommend it, the acting is fantastic, the story is more real than we'd like it to be.

Later I remembered a line from it, about how the black guy who served in WWII was slapped on the butt by a European girl who explained to him that the white GIs had told her the blacks were more monkey than human, so she was checking for a tail. Evidence that human descent from an apelike forbear had become the content of current racism.

I haven't read much of this thread but enough to know that people fight the idea that the theory of evolution has anything to do with racism. But historically it is known to have fueled racism. Historically Hitler did make use of it, and so did Margaret Sanger who promoted abortion -- she had in mind mostly blacks, and she was a proponent of eugenics, as was Hitler.

Of course the ToE didn't invent racism, that was already part of human experience, a form of tribalism I guess. But there is no doubt the idea that humans descend from an apelike ancestor, and that human origins are often traced to Africa, fuels the idea that there are levels of human beings, more evolved and less evolved human beings. If it was just a matter of built-in variation of the Kind there wouldn't be levels, it takes the idea of evolution to bring in levels, although granted, that is a popular misunderstanding and officially there is no reason to think in terms of progress in evolution. Supposedly anyway. I think it's the natural conclusion but OK you can claim it's a mistake.

There was racism even before evolution of course, and the hard thing to grasp is how it could have coexisted with Christianity since Biblically it is very clear we are all descended from one set of human parents, so we're all cousins.


Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 30425
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 219 of 238 (830586)
04-03-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
04-03-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
LOL

Adam & Eve are fiction.

Christianity has historically been racist.

It is not the theory of Evolution but the Bible that was the primary source of the racist thoughts about black people; the Sons of Ham.

Have you ever read the Bible Faith? If not, try Genesis 9.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 28561
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 220 of 238 (830590)
04-03-2018 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by jar
04-03-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
Adam and Eve were quite real.

You aren't thinking any further back "historically" than a century or two. Racism is antithetical to Christianity.


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jar
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Posts: 30425
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 221 of 238 (830592)
04-03-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
04-03-2018 1:53 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
Faith writes:

Adam and Eve were quite real.

So you claim but you provide no evidence beyond the dogma of your cult.

Faith writes:

You aren't thinking any further back "historically" than a century or two. Racism is antithetical to Christianity.

Yet that is not what the Bible says. Have you ever read the Bible Faith. Did you go read Genesis 9?

Edited by jar, : sENTECES should start with a Capital letter.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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PaulK
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Posts: 14010
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 222 of 238 (830594)
04-03-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
04-03-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
quote:

I haven't read much of this thread but enough to know that people fight the idea that the theory of evolution has anything to do with racism. But historically it is known to have fueled racism. Historically Hitler did make use of it, and so did Margaret Sanger who promoted abortion -- she had in mind mostly blacks, and she was a proponent of eugenics, as was Hitler.

Hitler was not exactly a fan of evolution, and his racism was based on ideas published prior to Darwin’s Origin. We may also note that it is hardly unknown for Christians - especially conservative Christians in America to support racism. Bob Jones University, for instance had a ban on inter-racial relationships into the ‘70s.

quote:

Of course the ToE didn't invent racism, that was already part of human experience, a form of tribalism I guess. But there is no doubt the idea that humans descend from an apelike ancestor, and that human origins are often traced to Africa, fuels the idea that there are levels of human beings, more evolved and less evolved human beings.

As has the idea that the Jews were to blame for the death of Jesus, and bore the guilt for it. The idea that there are different levels of human beings is not - in reality - significantly supported by the theory - since humans are all one species. If you want to say that modern humans are - in some respects - superior to Homo Habilis, go ahead.

Indeed the theory gives us no reason to suppose that the races of humanity should be significantly different in any way that we think important. Racial divisions lack even a sound basis in biology (consider the one-drop rule for extreme absurdity). Local populations will tend to become adapted to local conditions - such as Andean natives tending to have greater lung capacities but I can’t imagine that being greatly significant to racists.

quote:

There was racism even before evolution of course, and the hard thing to grasp is how it could have coexisted with Christianity since Biblically it is very clear we are all descended from one set of human parents, so we're all cousins.

You should know better than that First, if common ancestry were sufficient, evolution has that. Second the Bible endorses racism in a number of ways. The whole idea of a “Chosen people” supports racism. There is the “Curse of Ham” which condemns an entire ethnic group (almost) to slavery. True, some Christians distorted it by claiming that it was about Africans rather than Canaanites (excepting the Israelites) but the sentiment was still there. Other Christians decided that dark skin was the Mark of Cain, and this belief was part of the Southern Baptist justification of slavery.

Then there is the belief in polygenism which some adopted in the 19th Century - including Louis Agassiz, perhaps the last creationist scientist (in the sense that creationism was relevant to his scientific views, at least).

It may not be easy for you to imagine - perhaps in part because you don’t want to imagine it. But it happened.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 28561
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 223 of 238 (830598)
04-03-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by PaulK
04-03-2018 2:23 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
True, people have used those Biblical events as excuses for racism too.
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14010
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 224 of 238 (830601)
04-03-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
04-03-2018 2:45 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
Worse, the Curse Of Ham, even properly understood is racist. The idea that the Jews, to this day, should be considered guilty of Jesus’ wrongful execution - which could be considered murder - is racist (and has contributed greatly to justifying Christian persecution of the Jews). The idea that the Israelites should be entitled to special privileges in Israelite law is racist.

Racism is IN the Bible, and endorsed by the Binle.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 28561
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 225 of 238 (830602)
04-03-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by PaulK
04-03-2018 3:01 PM


Re: Evolution provides the popular imagination with reasons for racism
The Jews of the day did call for Jesus' execution and for the release of another instead, one Barabbas. But Jesus forgave all His persecutors so there is no excuse for persecuting the Jews based on that Biblical fact.
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