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Author Topic:   Meert / Brown Debate
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 196 of 233 (217124)
06-15-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by PaulK
06-15-2005 11:12 AM


Re: What I'd like to know.
PaulK, I am addressing your argument. It's up to you to show the text of the document states what you say it does.
I have repeatedly asked you to show the provision where Walt covenants to send the change to a 3rd party, and you cannot.
So claiming by signing the agreement, he agreed to do that is bogus.
By signing the agreement, he agreed that the other party limits their options if they want to propose a change, but that no where in the agreement does it state that he limits his choices.
All the agreement says in respect to the party not making the change, in this case, Walt is:
This agreement can be modified by mutual consent of the two sides.
The subsequent language only specifies that the party requesting a change must agree to limit it's choices in order to make that change.
That language only refers to their offer, and their willingness to have the offer considered and abide by the determination of a 3rd party.
You are claiming the agreement says something without showing any sentences that state what you say it does. You are making a false claim stating I am ignoring your argument.
No, I am asking for evidence for your argument from the text, and you cannot provide it.
Show where the text says what you claim or concede the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 11:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 11:25 AM randman has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 197 of 233 (217126)
06-15-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by NosyNed
06-15-2005 11:12 AM


Re: quoting the text
THe problem is that would require reproducing the entire agreement.
My position is:
1) Walt signed the agreement, therefore committing himself to debate so long as the other part follows the procedures laid out in the agreement.
2) The agreement permits the other party to propose modifications - on the condition that the other party accepts the editors decision on whether the changes should be allowed. That clause presumes that Brown does not consent to the modifications - not only by its existence (it serves no purpose if Brown consents to the change) but also in that it provides for Brown to present a case against acceptance. (This can supported by just quoting that text but it has often appeared here)
3) The question of the modifications must be resolved before he debate proceeds and thus it must be done within the provisions of the agreement. There is no provision permitting Brown to unilaterally reject the modification - thus that is not an option. Showing the absence of a provision really would require quoting the whole agreement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by NosyNed, posted 06-15-2005 11:12 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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Message 198 of 233 (217127)
06-15-2005 11:23 AM


PaulK and Randman:
Perhaps it's just my short attention span, but the "you did so", "I did not" part of this discussion may seem as impenetrable to everyone else as it does to me. Could you guys draw your discussion closer to the thread's topic, and if you're able to do that then please make more clear your position in each post so we don't have to go back 5 or 10 messages just to figure out what the heck you're arguing about?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 199 of 233 (217128)
06-15-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by randman
06-15-2005 11:19 AM


Re: What I'd like to know.
Demanding that I prove something I did not claim is not addressing my argument. It is misrepresentation. Repeated misrepresentation on your part does not prove me wrong.
Where is the clause permitting Walt Brown to unilaterally reject proposed modifications ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 11:19 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:10 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 200 of 233 (217132)
06-15-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by NosyNed
06-15-2005 11:18 AM


Re: The non changing party?
That's randman's misrperesentation. See Message 197 for a repeat of my real argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by NosyNed, posted 06-15-2005 11:18 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:22 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 208 by NosyNed, posted 06-15-2005 6:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5185 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 201 of 233 (217146)
06-15-2005 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by randman
06-15-2005 10:16 AM


Re: Murphy's Law
randman,
Prove that. Show me anywhere in the document that specifically demands that Walt agree to submit any proposed change, without seeing it, to a 3rd party.
When did I say anything about sight unseen?
You guys have some strange ideas about legal documents. I hope you don't ever have to review and sign any. The document absolutely does not require that the party not requesting the change accept or send the change to a 3rd party.
We aren't dealing with a legal document, so what a legal document requires is neither here nor there.
What we are dealing with is your equivocation over Walt's ambiguous phraseology in clause 22. Clearly, what he meant was that any modification would be admitted or rejected by a 3rd party referee. We know this because he said as much to Joe before he submitted his proposed modification.
Why did he about-face on his stated intention?
If you disagree with Walt on this, might I suggest that you mail him personally & inform him that you know his own mind better than he?
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-15-2005 12:55 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 10:16 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:26 PM mark24 has replied

  
bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5004 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 202 of 233 (217160)
06-15-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by randman
06-14-2005 11:59 PM


Re: What I'd like to know.
Thanks for the answer. I think I understand what you are saying but I guess I just don't agree. If Walt is unwilling to allow changes to the agreement it seems disingenuous to include a "change" clause and then simply not respond.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by randman, posted 06-14-2005 11:59 PM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 203 of 233 (217162)
06-15-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
06-15-2005 11:25 AM


Re: What I'd like to know.
Where is the clause permitting Walt Brown to unilaterally reject proposed modifications ?
Right here, buddy, as I have shown you repeatedly.
This agreement can be modified by mutual consent of the two sides.
No where else is there any clause that changes that, period. "Mutual consent" means one party can unilaterally decide to reject a change, unless otherwise provided for. The only other section relates only to limiting the party's consent that requests the change.
No where does it state that Walt has to send the proposed change to a 3rd party, but it does state his "mutual consent" is required.
What part of "mutual consent" do you not understand?
Mutual consent is required by both parties to even send the agreement to a 3rd party. One side can ask for a change, and in doing state they are willing to send the agreement change to a 3rd party. That does not negate the fact the other party's mutual consent is still required. All that does is provide for the mutual consent of the party requesting the change to send it to a 3rd party if the other party so chooses. That's what it says.
Why not just own up to the facts here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 11:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 5:52 PM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 204 of 233 (217163)
06-15-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by PaulK
06-15-2005 11:26 AM


Re: The non changing party?
No, misrepresentation. You cannot back up your claims.
That clause presumes that Brown does not consent to the modifications - not only by its existence (it serves no purpose if Brown consents to the change) but also in that it provides for Brown to present a case against acceptance. (This can supported by just quoting that text but it has often appeared here)
No, the clause states that the by mutual consent both parties may agree to send it to a 3rd party. There could be cases of rules-changes that Brown does not want, but is willing to accept upon a 3rd party ruling, and other proposed changes that he is not willing to do that.
The agreement provides for both, giving Brown the option of totally rejecting the change up-front, or sending it to a 3rd party where the clause could be rejected. It's perfectly understandable to want to have it both ways here. It may be that the price of a proposed change is worth getting someone to debate, and hence sending it to a 3rd party, or the price is not worth it, and hence not sending it.
Joe's committment is per the offer. Walt is free to accept or reject the offer.
3) The question of the modifications must be resolved before he debate proceeds and thus it must be done within the provisions of the agreement. There is no provision permitting Brown to unilaterally reject the modification - thus that is not an option.
Wrong, there is provision to unilaterally reject any proposed changes, and it's spelled out quite clearly.
This agreement can be modified by mutual consent of the two sides.
The provision for the party requesting the change merely gives them the opportunity ahead of time to agree to a 3rd party ruling in the matter. No where does it state or even imply that Walt has thus granted that he gives up the right to mutually consent or reject the change outright.
Where are you getting that from?
This is the clause in question, and it only involves one party covenanting to the 3rd party ruling, not both.
[INITIAL IF APPROPRIATE] I wish to propose a modification to the above conditions. However, I am willing to have the editor decide the matter after my opponent and I have presented our positions. I will abide by this ruling and participate in the written debate. My suggested changes and their justification are listed below.
I don't see any reference to the other party committing to take the rules change request to a 3rd party. "I am willing" is a statement and covenant of the party identified as "I" which in this case is Joe.
Walt has not signed off on removing his right to mutually consent here at all, and why should he. Unlike Joe, he would not have even seen the proposed rules change. So he gets to see it, and then decide if it is worth the risk of sending it to the 3rd party.
He decided it was not worth the risk, and thus acted appropiately. Moreover, Brown stated all along that his acceptance of the debate was contigent on an iron-clad rule of no religion.
Making provision for the other party to request a change in no way obligates Brown to accept the change. It only obligates the other party to a 3rd party ruling upon Brown's consent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 6:07 PM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 205 of 233 (217165)
06-15-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by mark24
06-15-2005 12:12 PM


Re: Murphy's Law
Clearly, what he meant was that any modification would be admitted or rejected by a 3rd party referee.
No, he clearly stated the opposite. That he inserted the clause to refer to procedural changes, not changes in the content of the debate.
As far as the wording, there is nothing obligating Brown to accept the change and send it to a 3rd party, period.
As far as intent, the same holds true. He clearly and repeatedly said he would debate only on the facts, not religion, and stated that he would accept changes within those parameters.
Joe asked for changes outside those parameters, and then has the gall to claim the agreement demands Walt accept them by sending them to a 3rd party.
Well, if we are falling back on the wording, the agreement makes no such demand of Walt.
If we are going by fairness and original intent, Walt is also 100% in the right here since there is no doubt in their communication and Walt's longstanding offer, that the debate content had to be limited to the facts, not theology.
If Joe had asked for a procedural change, not a change in content, then Walt said he would go through with it, but that's not what happened.
Let's all be honest here. You know and I know what Walt offerred and did not. He clearly offerred repeatedly to debate but only on the facts. You guys are trying to use the language ti suggest he has to go through with a debate beyond those parameters, but your claims are false because the language doesn't even obligate Walt.
If Joe or anyone wants to accept his challenge, they can do so. Accept the challenge of debating only the facts, or don't.
This message has been edited by randman, 06-15-2005 01:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by mark24, posted 06-15-2005 12:12 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 5:55 PM randman has not replied
 Message 211 by mark24, posted 06-15-2005 6:42 PM randman has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 206 of 233 (217235)
06-15-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by randman
06-15-2005 1:10 PM


Re: What I'd like to know.
So your only answer is to misrepresent Clause 22 AGAIN.
As I have pointed out it only states that the agreement MAY be modified by mutual consent. It does NOT state that the agreement may ONLY be modified by mutual consent. Therefore it does not rule out the possibility of making changes to the agreement by other means.
So we have confirmed that you know of no clause that allows Walt Bown to unilaterally reject modifications. Therefore the only viable options identified by the agreement are the three I have alreay listed
(Yes three - apparently you lack either the literacy or the numeracy to distinguish between a list of three options and a single course of action).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:10 PM randman has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 207 of 233 (217237)
06-15-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by randman
06-15-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Murphy's Law
quote:
If Joe or anyone wants to accept his challenge, they can do so.
That isn't true. Do you know why Walt Brown refused to debate jim Lippard ? The debate offer is NOT open to anyone.
(Indeed it is pretty obvious that the proposal is a PR stunt - and including the fact that Brown's beliefs are based on his rteligious views would spoil that - THAT is why Walt Brown doesn't want religion mentioned).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:26 PM randman has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 208 of 233 (217240)
06-15-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by PaulK
06-15-2005 11:26 AM


Re: The non changing party?
quote:
[INITIAL IF APPROPRIATE] I wish to propose a modification to the above conditions. However, I am willing to have the editor decide the matter after my opponent and I have presented our positions. I will abide by this ruling and participate in the written debate. My suggested changes and their justification are listed below.
Two things:
1) I am confused by the above. Who is the "I" in that paragraph?
It looks like something inserted? What is it's history?
2) Do I remember correctly that Joe agreed to debate even though Brown would not accept religion in the debate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2005 6:16 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 212 by mark24, posted 06-15-2005 6:53 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 214 by randman, posted 06-16-2005 2:07 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 209 of 233 (217241)
06-15-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by randman
06-15-2005 1:22 PM


Re: The non changing party?
Exactly which claim is it that I am supposedly unable to back up ?
quote:
No, the clause states that the by mutual consent both parties may agree to send it to a 3rd party.
No, there is no such clause. There is a clause allowing the two parties to change the agreement by mutual consent but it does not require the intervention of a third party. (Such a rule is obviously silly - after all if the two parties consent then they have the simple option of simply drawing up a new agreement incorporating the modifications)
quote:
The agreement provides for both, giving Brown the option of totally rejecting the change up-front, or sending it to a 3rd party where the clause could be rejected
An outright lie. There is no clause permitting Brown to reject a change unilaterally.
quote:
Wrong, there is provision to unilaterally reject any proposed changes, and it's spelled out quite clearly.
This agreement can be modified by mutual consent of the two sides.
Could the lie be any more obviosu ? of course it does not provide for the unilateral rejection of modifications proposed by the other party.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by randman, posted 06-15-2005 1:22 PM randman has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 210 of 233 (217243)
06-15-2005 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by NosyNed
06-15-2005 6:07 PM


Re: The non changing party?
There's no problem here. There's not even any dispute over the meaning (randman tries to pretend there is - over my repeated protests).
The "I" is the other party agreeing to the debate (Brown has no need to propose changes since he wrote the agreement - and is free to withdraw it and post a new version whenever he wishes).
I know that that secion of text was ibn the document when Joe Meert signed and sent in the form since I checked Brown's website myself at the time. I am not aware of the prior history.
Joe Meert agreed to debate provided the editor was permitted to rule on his proposed modifications - and to accept that ruling no matter what it was. Whether Brown refused to allow that because he didn't dare allow a neutral third party to adjudicate or whether he simply hoped to weasel out of the debate is something we can't know. Both are plausible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by NosyNed, posted 06-15-2005 6:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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