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Author Topic:   No evolution/creation debate in Europe
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 107 (442508)
12-21-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 10:17 AM


Re: Schools
There is no debate, Buzz. In UK schools it's evolution all the way.

Although no doubt some teachers have personal opinions if you try to pass a biology exam in UK and write 'Goddidit' you will fail.

You can have your own opinions at home, not in the science class.

Edited by Larni, : Spellink.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 12-21-2007 10:17 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 17 of 107 (442513)
12-21-2007 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-21-2007 1:46 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Nemesis_Juggernaut writes:

I assume that was some argument against the existence of God...????

Why would you assume that? Where do you see anything in the OP about the existence of God?

It doesn't matter who made the scientist. It only matters how well he/she is educated. The topic is about how Europe doesn't seem to let notions about God hamper scientific education.


Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 12-21-2007 5:34 PM ringo has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 107 (442574)
12-21-2007 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
12-21-2007 2:26 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Ringo writes:

It doesn't matter who made the scientist. It only matters how well he/she is educated. The topic is about how Europe doesn't seem to let notions about God hamper scientific education.

As I've shown here fairness in balance makes for overall good science in Europe, America and around the world. Onesidedness tends toward censorship and ignorance. The Biblical model is not a hindrance. It's an alternative science which has certain merits and offers alternative possibilities/hypotheses.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 12-21-2007 2:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 12-21-2007 5:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 12-21-2007 7:14 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 22 by obvious Child, posted 12-22-2007 2:55 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 24 by CK, posted 12-22-2007 7:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 12-22-2007 7:28 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 19 of 107 (442579)
12-21-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 5:34 PM


There in no Biblical model Buz.
I'm sorry Buz but simply linking to a post that was off topic and only filled with assertions you have NEVER been able to support is not anything but a waste of bandwidth.

The Biblical model is not a hindrance. It's an alternative science which has certain merits and offers alternative possibilities/hypotheses.

There is no Biblical model and it is NOT science. Your continued repeating falsehoods will never make them true.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 107 (442590)
12-21-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
12-21-2007 1:19 PM


Are You There Peracutus?
We seem to have lost peracutus but it appears that he's informing us about how he sees it in Europe compared to America and is interested in our responses.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 12-21-2007 1:19 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 21 of 107 (442604)
12-21-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 5:34 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Buzsaw writes:

Onesidedness tends toward censorship and ignorance.

We're talking about onlysidedness, though. If creationists were honest, they'd roll out their curriculum. It can't be censored before you even present it. There are plenty of threads here for you to do so.


Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 12-21-2007 5:34 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 22 of 107 (442631)
12-22-2007 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 5:34 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
quote:
Onesidedness tends toward censorship and ignorance. The Biblical model is not a hindrance. It's an alternative science which has certain merits and offers alternative possibilities/hypotheses.

ID should be taught in the US.

It wouldn't take much time either. Essentially a teacher would simply say to the class: "The model of Intelligent design revolves around the concept that if we don't know, God was therefore responsible."

And then the teacher would go back to what they were doing.

As for Creationism, it should be taught in religion class, where it as the same amount of evidence and validity as other religions. But creationists tend to get their proverbial panties in knots when their beliefs are placed next to other evidence free beliefs. Most forums I've been on where a religion's origin vs literal creationism thread is started rarely see any creationist traffic on that thread. But that's not surprising as Creationism can only fallaciously find validity in false dichotomies. Even here the thread about evidence for creationism is very, very, scares on actual evidence for.

Would you support the teaching of a idea which bases its truth off of the invalidity of another?

Think of it this way, assume there are 26 possible answers to a philosophy question. Someone argues that answer B is wrong, therefore answer A is automatically correct because B is wrong. They ignore that 24 other answers exist. Would you want your kids to learn that kind of reasoning? That where many answers exist, that only 2 exist and only one exists because the other is false?


This message is a reply to:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 23 of 107 (442632)
12-22-2007 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
12-21-2007 7:14 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Yet unsurprisingly Creationists both here and on other forums seem genetically incapable of arguing that creation, literal that is, is true on its own merits.

Something that is true can be argued on its own merits without even acknowledging the existence of competing ideas. A false idea cannot and most of those only survive due to ignorance of people.


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CK
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 24 of 107 (442647)
12-22-2007 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 5:34 PM


Balance with what?
There is a cultural gulf here - you are saying that bibical models should be taught to provide balance, that there is merit to the ideas of creationism/Intelligence design. We, from europe is saying that there is nothing to balance, we start from a position that both concepts have no merit. Well actually we don't even start from there, both concepts are so discredited, we don't even discuss anymore if they should be discussed.
This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 25 of 107 (442656)
12-22-2007 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
12-21-2007 5:34 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Buzz, before I came to evc I had no idea that people believed in actual literal biblical creation. I concidered this just as mad as flat earthers and origenally came here to have a bit of a laugh.

Imagine my suprise when I found that there are people who really believe genesis is true.

I just never came across it in my time in the UK. Hell even the pope believes evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 12-21-2007 5:34 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2007 8:42 PM Larni has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 107 (442863)
12-22-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
12-22-2007 7:28 AM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
As Joseph Goebbel stated, falsehoods can be repeated to the point of believability. (not direct quote) Abe: Of course we know which ideology the students hear the most.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 12-22-2007 7:28 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by obvious Child, posted 12-22-2007 9:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 29 by anglagard, posted 12-23-2007 4:30 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 34 by Larni, posted 12-23-2007 12:50 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 37 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 1:40 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 27 of 107 (442880)
12-22-2007 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Cut the crap.

If your belief was true, you'd be able to argue it. Instead of you simply refuse to even address the minority of points made against your arguments and often fall back on a sentiment that you and your beliefs are victims of society.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2007 8:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1013 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 28 of 107 (442925)
12-23-2007 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Zucadragon
12-21-2007 10:01 AM


historical problems
Thank you for sharing your observations, Zucadragon.

Americans have a tendency to think of themselves at the extreme: either the best or the worst in the world. It's cultural narcissism born of geographical isolation. The result is a cultural self-image distorted by the classic Virgin-Whore dichotomy. In thinking their society the embodiment of good in the world or the embodiment of evil, Americans tend to assume that others think the same way. It never occurs to them that in any respect the rest of the world might view them as merely ordinary.

In support of your observations, here are a few BBC stories about creationism as an issue in UK education. The articles carry links that can take anyone further who wants to explore this.

2002
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1979840.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A734302

Choice quote: 'British readers may be reading about Creationism and smugly thinking 'Only in America'. Well, don't be so sure.'

2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4896652.stm

A complicating factor for educators in Europe is the presence in many countries of Muslims as a large minority. Muslims have their own biblical literalists. Like other biblical literalists, they tend to be YECs who misunderstand and distrust science.

There's another reason Europeans don't laugh as hard as the author of our OP imagines: they know the history. If the New World is disproportionately populated today by people who take religion very, very seriously, it is because European monarchs once took it seriously enough to imprison and kill their ancestors for theirs.

_______

Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : url.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 29 of 107 (442926)
12-23-2007 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Buzsaw writes:

As Joseph Goebbel stated, falsehoods can be repeated to the point of believability. (not direct quote) Abe: Of course we know which ideology the students hear the most.

I would assume this observation is not only meant for secular education but also includes the home-schooled and students in religious institutions such as certain schools, colleges, and churches.

Edited by anglagard, : left out a word


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 30 of 107 (442929)
12-23-2007 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Archer Opteryx
12-23-2007 4:21 AM


Re: historical problems
Archer writes:

There's another reason Europeans don't laugh as hard as the author of our OP imagines: they know the history. If the New World is disproportionately populated today by people who take religion very, very seriously, it is because European kings and queens once took religion seriously enough to imprison and kill their ancestors for theirs.

Yes, a point I was going to bring up myself to some extent. :)

Here is my take:

To elaborate regarding the history of the US relative to Europe, I think the result of not having a state religion or a uniform religion purged of dissenters (think Inquisition or the Huguenots) is that every take on religion, no matter how wacky it may appear to outsiders, often found fertile ground in the US. It is no mistake that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and Seventh Day Adventists all started here instead of Europe.

As to the idea of modern creation 'science,' virtually all roots go back to the Millerites, who spawned many of the US home-grown denominations. Despite continuous failure in predicting the exact date of the end of the world, the leaders and adherents always came up with excuses for the failure of their prophecies, even to the point where they became experts at denial and delusion.

Having repeatedly failed at the end-time stuff and evidently tired of being on the defensive, they decided to attack 'modernity' of which science is a part. Populist concerns with having to adapt from a simple independent farm-based economy to an industrial one caused much anxiety which found a relief in adherence to over-simplistic and anti-intellectual 'old-time-religion.'

One small problem with lacking a deep history or ancient culture is that it allows too much respectability to being anti-intellectual as witnessed by our play-stupid politicians. It's like "vote for me because I am as ignorant as you are."

Ask Agnew, Reagan, Bush, or Huckabee for further details.

But I digress. I say scratch a YEC deep enough and in all likelihood you will find a Millerite


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-23-2007 4:21 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

    
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