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Author Topic:   No evolution/creation debate in Europe
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 107 (442964)
12-23-2007 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by anglagard
12-23-2007 4:30 AM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
anglagard writes:

I would assume this observation is not only meant for secular education but also includes the home-schooled and students in religious institutions such as certain schools, colleges, and churches

Not really. The observation is to mean that the mostest propagated in the population the mosted believed. We already know what is by far the mostest propagated to the mostest students.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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reiverix
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 80
From: Central Ohio
Joined: 10-18-2007


Message 32 of 107 (442987)
12-23-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Archer Opteryx
12-23-2007 4:21 AM


Re: historical problems
In support of your observations, here are a few BBC stories about creationism as an issue in UK education. The articles carry links that can take anyone further who wants to explore this.

2002
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1979840.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A734302

Choice quote: 'British readers may be reading about Creationism and smugly thinking 'Only in America'. Well, don't be so sure.'

2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4896652.stm


This is shocking. When I was still in high school in the UK 25 years ago, this kind of stuff was unheard of.

So is the Creationism cancer slowly permeating throughout the globe? They have the time and money to spread their aganda. I'm disturbed by this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-23-2007 4:21 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 1598 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 33 of 107 (442999)
12-23-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by reiverix
12-23-2007 10:59 AM


Re: historical problems
quote:
So is the Creationism cancer slowly permeating throughout the globe?

Not really, that story got a great deal of coverage because it was such an oddity.


This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 34 of 107 (443009)
12-23-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
It's not about ideology, Buzz. It's about fact vs bullshit.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2007 8:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 35 of 107 (443015)
12-23-2007 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Archer Opteryx
12-23-2007 4:21 AM


Re: historical problems
Archer writes:

Muslims have their own biblical literalists.

Well, I'll be damned, but thanks for informing us of that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-23-2007 4:21 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29142
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 36 of 107 (443021)
12-23-2007 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Archer Opteryx
12-23-2007 4:21 AM


Re: historical problems
There's another reason Europeans don't laugh as hard as the author of our OP imagines: they know the history. If the New World is disproportionately populated today by people who take religion very, very seriously, it is because European monarchs once took it seriously enough to imprison and kill their ancestors for theirs.

No where is this message clearer than in looking at English History. Beginning with Henry VIII and continuing down to the Act of Settlement (even beyond if the Jacobitism movement is considered) religion, absolute monarchy and power were the order of the day.

One interesting thing is that James II & VII while a supporter of Absolute Monarchy was also a supporter of Religious Freedom and to a great extent his deposition was as much to preclude religious tolerance as it was to attack absolute Monarchy.

We need to remember that the English who settled what became the US had known and lived under religious intolerance from The Act of Supremacy in 1534 until the end of the Jacobite Risings in 1746. The issue was NOT ancient history to them but rather very real and very immediate.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2112 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 107 (443024)
12-23-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
12-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
quote:
Of course we know which ideology the students hear the most.

Yeah, that stupid Round Earth ideaology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 12-22-2007 8:42 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 107 (443047)
12-23-2007 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by nator
12-23-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Your message has absolutely no substance as to an objective response.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 1:40 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 4:46 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2112 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 107 (443059)
12-23-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
12-23-2007 3:10 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
quote:
Your message has absolutely no substance as to an objective response.

Science isn't an "ideology", it is a tool, a way of thinking about evidence that is designed to produce reliable explanatory results.

Ideologies are philosophical beliefs or doctrines.

If you think that Evolutionary Biology is an "ideology", then you must also think that Cosmology is an "ideology"..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2007 3:10 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2007 8:43 PM nator has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 107 (443151)
12-23-2007 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
12-23-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
nator writes:

Science isn't an "ideology"........

I know, but there are varying ideologies among scientists which have a bearing on how things observed are interpreted.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 4:46 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 12-23-2007 9:38 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 46 by nator, posted 12-24-2007 2:31 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 41 of 107 (443165)
12-23-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
12-23-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
... but there are varying ideologies among scientists ...

From christian to any other religion to atheistic. What you are looking for is an overall philosophy for science.

See naturalism

quote:
Naturalism is any of several philosophical stances, typically those descended from materialism and pragmatism, that do not distinguish the supernatural (including strange entities like non-natural values, and universals as they are commonly conceived) from nature. Naturalism does not necessarily claim that phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural do not exist or are wrong, but insists that all phenomena and hypotheses can be studied by the same methods and therefore anything considered supernatural is either nonexistent or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses. Some naturalists also insist that a legitimate distinction between supernatural entities and natural entities cannot be properly made (focusing on the conceptual distinction itself), and that when someone is talking or thinking about supernatural entities, they are actually referring to natural entities (though confusedly).

Pretty big umbrella.

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 107 (443179)
12-23-2007 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
12-23-2007 9:38 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
So is the phrase you quoted from me correct or not?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 12-23-2007 9:38 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-24-2007 12:26 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
William Rea
Junior Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 12-23-2007


Message 43 of 107 (443183)
12-23-2007 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by reiverix
12-23-2007 10:59 AM


Re: historical problems
The article is right, we certainly shouldn't be too smug about the problems the US is having with it's fundies because it is being exported very successfully to the UK. I see us having the same battles in the UK over the next ten years.

It's a situation that the local Government has turned a blind eye to because of the fiscal benefits of so called "Faith" schools and I also have suspicions that Blair has been less than candid about the extent of his religiosity.

Emmanuel College has a particularly interesting background. It has been partly funded by Vardy, a fundamentalist used car salesman (does that ring any alarm bells with you as well!). There is evidence that this school is making life very difficult for the secular and the less fundamentalist teachers.

The last I heard the same man was trying to "invest" in a third school in another economically disadvantaged part of the North East despite almost unanimous opposition from parents. It would seem that the fundies see these areas as a cheap way to gain a foothold in our education system.

Edited by William Rea, : Naming error

Edited by William Rea, : Corrected error on wording related to fiscal matters


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 44 of 107 (443199)
12-24-2007 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
12-23-2007 10:50 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
So is the phrase you quoted from me correct or not?

It's correct, but not because of anything in evolution.

It is correct in the different faiths of scientists, and it is correct in the overall philosophy of naturalism - both with and without supernatural inclusions to varying degrees.

But evolution just says how life happens. No whys.

When creationists say "evolutionism" what they really mean is "naturalism" - and usually metaphysical naturalism:

quote:
Metaphysical naturalism is any worldview in which the world is amenable to a unified study that includes the natural sciences and in this sense the world is a unity. According to such a view, nature is all there is, and all things supernatural (which stipulatively includes spirits and souls, non-natural values, and universals as they are commonly conceived) do not exist.
(Wikipedia 2007}

Which is essentially atheism. By contrast scientists in general would use methodological naturalism:

quote:
Many modern philosophers of science[1][2] use the terms methodological naturalism or scientific naturalism to refer to the long standing convention in science of the scientific method, which makes the methodological assumption that observable effects in nature are best explainable only by natural causes, without reference to, or an assumption of, the existence or non-existence of supernatural notions.
(Wikipedia 2007}

Which is essentially agnostic and would not interfere with belief in the supernatural. These philosophies have been around a lot longer than Darwin's theory of evolution too.

When I look up the definition of "evolutionism" (which gives me a spell-check error) I get

quote:
ev·o·lu·tion·ism n.
1. A theory of biological evolution, especially that formulated by Charles Darwin.
2. Advocacy of or belief in biological evolution.
(American Heritage Dictionary 2007}

Not a philosophy based on evolution or an ideology.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : credit

Edited by RAZD, : clarity


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2007 10:50 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 107 (443288)
12-24-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
12-24-2007 12:26 AM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
No matter how you spin it, evolutionism is a proper and correct gramatical and scientific term/word in reference to the term/word evolution which was my point all along.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-24-2007 12:26 AM RAZD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 12-24-2007 2:33 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
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