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Author Topic:   No evolution/creation debate in Europe
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 107 (443328)
12-24-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
12-23-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
quote:
but there are varying ideologies among scientists which have a bearing on how things observed are interpreted.

Evidence of this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2007 8:43 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 10:17 AM nator has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 107 (443329)
12-24-2007 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
12-24-2007 10:34 AM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation

quote:
No matter how you spin it, evolutionism is a proper and correct gramatical and scientific term/word in reference to the term/word evolution which was my point all along.

"Evolutionism" is not a scientific term.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2007 10:34 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 10:28 AM nator has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 107 (443481)
12-25-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
12-24-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
shraf writes:

Evidence of this?

definition of ideology from Merriam Webster:

1: visionary theorizing
2 a: a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c: the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 12-24-2007 2:31 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 107 (443483)
12-25-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
12-24-2007 2:33 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
shraf writes:

"Evolutionism" is not a scientific term.

By the same token then autism is not a medical term as per your contention, nor is journalism to the profession of a journalist.

This is leading off topic here to go into this debate in debth, but I know I'll be accused of running off without supporting claims if I let it slide. If you want to do a thread on it go for it and I'll debate it in debth.

Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 12-24-2007 2:33 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by RAZD, posted 12-25-2007 12:38 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 50 of 107 (443505)
12-25-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
12-25-2007 10:28 AM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
By the same token then autism is not a medical term as per your contention,

No that would be medicalism. There is no chemistryism, there is no physicism, there is no astronomyism.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 10:28 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 11:13 PM RAZD has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 107 (443598)
12-25-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by RAZD
12-25-2007 12:38 PM


Re: Confusing mechanisms with causation
Razd writes:

No that would be medicalism.

Nonsense. Autism is a medical term applying the adverb autistic or the noun autist. It all applies to the same condition.

If you want to argue the isms point relative to evolution til the cows come home, open a thread and get up an OP. I'll debate in depth on the topic if you wish.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by RAZD, posted 12-25-2007 12:38 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 52 of 107 (443714)
12-26-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
12-25-2007 11:13 PM


sematicism? it's all a semanticist plot!
Nonsense. Autism is a medical term applying the adverb autistic or the noun autist. It all applies to the same condition.

But obviously NOT to the medical field, which is analogous to evolutionary biology.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2007 11:13 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
duanbei12 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3294 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 07-13-2008


Message 53 of 107 (475030)
07-13-2008 3:53 AM


spam removed duanbei12 banned
spam bucketed

Edited by AdminNosy, : spam


    
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3087 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 54 of 107 (478503)
08-16-2008 8:44 AM


No ID or Creationism in any textbook in Bulgaria(EU) either. Religion was uprooted and demolished by the communists and evolution was explained in great detail to the children/students. At least there was a positive side to communism(during communism religion was not outlawed but evolution was taught very strictly and no one seemed to have any second thoughts about it).
Nowadays this has not changed. There is no mention of god, deities, super powers or poltergeists in our textbooks. But then again, i think we bulgarians are the most un-religious people of europe.

Edited by Agobot, : spelling

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 55 of 107 (478611)
08-18-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by peracutus
12-20-2007 6:37 PM


peracutus writes:

God might help you to get over the loss of a beloved relative

Science will do that too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by peracutus, posted 12-20-2007 6:37 PM peracutus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 56 of 107 (478613)
08-18-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Larni
08-18-2008 1:51 PM


peracutus writes:

God might help you to get over the loss of a beloved relative


Science will do that too.

Also, in the case that that beloved relative was a suicide and/or not a Christian, then "God" (meaning a Christian belief in the Christian deity) would torment you with the "knowledge" that your beloved relative will spend Eternity in Hell. Yeah, big help that!

Not to mention the torment that Christians go through as they lie dying, worrying about the Judgement that awaits them and worried that they won't measure up (ie, that they'd fail that Judgement and wind up for all Eternity in Hell). Our minister (Unitarian) told us of ministering to many such terminal patients.

Not that science would really help there, so I don't quite agree with Larni's response. But at the very least taking a mature and rational (as much as is possible under those circumstances, which I have experienced personally) view does help to get through that. At least, a mature approach won't have you driving yourself crazy worried whether your loved one is in Hell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Larni, posted 08-18-2008 1:51 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 57 of 107 (478845)
08-21-2008 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Agobot
08-16-2008 8:44 AM


Communism Europe and the evolution indoctrination
Religion was uprooted and demolished by the communists and evolution was explained in great detail to the children/students.

Well now I call that incredibly sad. Communists sure know how to indoctrinate and evolution is all part of it -a very important part. After all how are we going to bow down to our leader if we have God.

I see that this Europe thread isn't really doing much so I'll speak for South Africa. Having lived in Canada and Zimbabwe, I have to say that South Africa has to be the most Christian nation in the world apart from, maybe, the United States. I learned all about evolution in Canada and then at University in South Africa but as far as the schools go, nothing substantial hit the books until this year. Suddenly it is required learning and goes well with the general downfall of the country. We used to be taught real physics and chemistry and biology, now we have evolution and we get to learn all about our ascent from the apes.

I feel incredibly sorry for those in countries that do not have the opportunity to learn about God's existance. If it hadn't been for South Africa, I would have had no clue either.I used to think the Christians were really quite silly believing in myths but now I know that it was not myth that they believed in, but truth.
As for Europeans, I meet plenty of them here and I know without asking that God does not exist in the majority of their lives because the indocrination of years in Europe has had its effect.
My daughter is spending the year in England and has found to her horror how Godless the people are. She thought everyone believed in God. I am incredibly grateful that I have been able to bring my children up in South Africa despite the state of the country now. What they have learned here will never leave them.
As the country disintegrates, so does our dependance on God increase. The evolution/creation controversy is going to be big in this country now that we are forced to teach evolution to the children. We are a little behind in the debate but it's coming.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Agobot, posted 08-16-2008 8:44 AM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 08-21-2008 11:20 AM Beretta has responded
 Message 64 by Agobot, posted 08-21-2008 1:34 PM Beretta has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 744 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 58 of 107 (478847)
08-21-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Beretta
08-21-2008 10:16 AM


Re: Communism Europe and the evolution indoctrination
Well now I call that incredibly sad. Communists sure know how to indoctrinate and evolution is all part of it -a very important part. After all how are we going to bow down to our leader if we have God.

It is sad. Any time the government decides to make religion (or non-religion) mandatory by law is a travesty of justice. But while the rationale you mention may well have been the reasoning of the Communist Party, it doesn't mean God exists.

I see that this Europe thread isn't really doing much so I'll speak for South Africa. Having lived in Canada and Zimbabwe, I have to say that South Africa has to be the most Christian nation in the world apart from, maybe, the United States. I learned all about evolution in Canada and then at University in South Africa but as far as the schools go, nothing substantial hit the books until this year. Suddenly it is required learning and goes well with the general downfall of the country. We used to be taught real physics and chemistry and biology, now we have evolution and we get to learn all about our ascent from the apes.

...except of course that evolution is grounded in observation and evidence just as strongly as any part of physics and chemistry, and is the entire groundwork for modern biology. Continuing to learn about well-founded science in science classes and continuing to develop a country struggling to catch up to the rest of the world is a good thing, Beretta. Not learning about evolution is in effect a step backwards, and would continue to leave South Africa behind the rest of the developed world in science education. Without evolution, modern medical research, genetics, and all of the other biological fields simply don't work. Do you think it's a good idea to simply have South Africa not join the rest of the world in understanding those fields? Is it fair to say to South African kids, "we're not going to teach you about evolution, and so you're not likely ever going to be the one to find a cure for AIDS or cancer, you'll never be a biologist, your medical education will always be substandard, and other countries will laugh at you, all because of our religious beliefs that you may or may not share?" Really, is that fair?

I feel incredibly sorry for those in countries that do not have the opportunity to learn about God's existence.

Personally, I wish I hadn't been indoctrinated into the Christian faith from birth. It would have made that whole deconversion process, an emotionally difficult period, unnecessary.

If it hadn't been for South Africa, I would have had no clue either.I used to think the Christians were really quite silly believing in myths but now I know that it was not myth that they believed in, but truth.

...and yet you wouldn't be able to present any evidence for that supposed "truth," would you.

As for Europeans, I meet plenty of them here and I know without asking that God does not exist in the majority of their lives because the indoctrination of years in Europe has had its effect.

What do you mean, the "indoctrination of years in Europe?" You mean simply learning accepted science in science classrooms without religious bias? You mean growing up in an atmosphere where the nonreligious are not considered aberrations (or as George Bush Sr. described us, "neither citizens nor patriots")? Are you making another reference to the antireligious agenda of the Soviets? Because if you'll notice the Christian religion is still going quite strongly in former Soviet-held territories. From what I understand (and someone is welcome to jump in with actual numbers), the European countries with the least amount of religious citizenry were all not under the Iron Curtain, so the Soviets can't be to blame. What indoctrination do you mean?

My daughter is spending the year in England and has found to her horror how Godless the people are. She thought everyone believed in God. I am incredibly grateful that I have been able to bring my children up in South Africa despite the state of the country now. What they have learned here will never leave them.

I'm incredibly amused every time a Jehova's Witness or Mormon knocks on my door and reacts with shock when I tell them I don't believe in any god at all. They're always so used to preaching to a slightly different choir.

But then, I used to be like that too. Growing up in the American midwest, brought up by extremely religious parents, sent to private religious schools and Bible camps, I not only thought that everyone in the world was Christian, I thought Jews were just characters in the Bible until I moved to the East Coast at 11 and actually met some Jewish people. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's embarrassing, and the lack of exposure to any other culture or belief set demonstrates exactly how even mainstream Christianity behaves exactly like a cult, and the only difference is popularity.

As the country disintegrates, so does our dependance on God increase. The evolution/creation controversy is going to be big in this country now that we are forced to teach evolution to the children. We are a little behind in the debate but it's coming.

And if your side wins, the youth of the nation will be condemned to be the laughing stocks of the entire scientific community when they graduate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Beretta, posted 08-21-2008 10:16 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2008 11:55 AM Rahvin has responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 59 of 107 (478848)
08-21-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Rahvin
08-21-2008 11:20 AM


off topic side question
You mean growing up in an atmosphere where the nonreligious are not considered aberrations (or as George Bush Sr. described us, "neither citizens nor patriots")?

Are you sure he was talking about "you" (plural)?

How do you know he was talking about atheists, as in people who lack a belief in gods, rather than Atheists, as in people who hold a positive belief that god doesn't exist?

You know, the definition of atheists is a little different these days.

I'd say that Strong Atheists are fairly retarded, not that I know any personally. But its an illogical position. WHat that has to do with being a citizen or patriot, I don't know, but I don't think your correct on who GB Sr. was talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 08-21-2008 11:20 AM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rahvin, posted 08-21-2008 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 62 by dwise1, posted 08-21-2008 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 744 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 60 of 107 (478849)
08-21-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by New Cat's Eye
08-21-2008 11:55 AM


Re: off topic side question
Are you sure he was talking about "you" (plural)?

How do you know he was talking about atheists, as in people who lack a belief in gods, rather than Atheists, as in people who hold a positive belief that god doesn't exist?

You know, the definition of atheists is a little different these days.

I'd say that Strong Atheists are fairly retarded, not that I know any personally. But its an illogical position. WHat that has to do with being a citizen or patriot, I don't know, but I don't think your correct on who GB Sr. was talking about.

I don't draw any distinction between so-called "strong and weak" Atheism for the purposes of Bush Sr's quote. Frankly, even your defense of his statement seems retarded.

Here's the full quote:

quote:
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.


See, Bush wasn't asked what he though of people who believed a God's existence was impossible, nor was he asked about people who simply lacked faith. He said "No, I don't believe Atheists should be considered citizens or patriots." That's the former President of the fucking United States essentially saying that there should be a religious test for citizenship. Even non-Atheists should be offended at that idea, as it runs compeltely counter to the Constitution.

Further, his statement immediately afterward was, "This is one nation under God." Clearly, Bush was not drawing any distinction between "strong and weak" Atheists, he was speaking about all those who do not believe in god. I'd doubt Bush (Sr or Jr) even knows there's a difference between a "strong or weak" Atheist.

I think you're just praciticing idiotic Bush apologetics, CS. He said what he said, and I don't see any interpretation other than "if you don't believe in God, I don't consider you to be a patriot or even a citizen." How could you possibly interpret it differently, and why on Earth would you think I would give two shits more or less if Bush was speaking only about "strong" Atheists?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2008 11:55 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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