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Author Topic:   Miller and Urey Experiment: What has changed?
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 16 of 85 (674248)
09-27-2012 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 9:33 AM


Well, I'm thinking of people like Oro, Szostak, Fox ... it's ridiculous to say that there's been no new data because there've been no successful experiments. As Matt P pointed out, there's a whole journal devoted to studies in this field. If they're not publishing new data, what are they publishing --- knitting patterns?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 9:33 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 6:57 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 17 of 85 (674302)
09-27-2012 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
09-27-2012 10:10 AM


Percy, They found more amino acids. most all needed for life, I think. Unfortunately, that does not qualify as life. Additionally, it does not qualify as life. Now that leaves the question, What is life?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 10:10 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:16 PM LimpSpider has responded
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 8:59 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 18 of 85 (674303)
09-27-2012 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 10:27 AM


Exactly what experiments can be cited, Dr.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 10:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:10 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 19 of 85 (674305)
09-27-2012 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 6:57 PM


I guess you could start with Fox, S. W.; Dose, K. (1977). "Molecular Evolution and the Origin of Life"; or you could look at the experiments detailed in Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres. Do you have any scientific critique of the peer-reviewed papers published in that journal?
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 Message 18 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 6:57 PM LimpSpider has responded

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 Message 21 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:43 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 20 of 85 (674308)
09-27-2012 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 6:56 PM


Percy, They found more amino acids. most all needed for life, I think. Unfortunately, that does not qualify as life. Additionally, it does not qualify as life. Now that leaves the question, What is life?

Oh, I'll do that one. Life is any collection of molecules that can cause their own synthesis by surface catalysis.

Your turn. What is life? Please note that you need a definition that incorporates both bacteria and God, and I have never seen any creationist supply one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 6:56 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 21 of 85 (674316)
09-27-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:10 PM


Thanks. I'll look that up. Maybe I'm wrong on this one
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:50 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 22 of 85 (674319)
09-27-2012 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:43 PM


Well yes, you are. You can't possibly be right about whether people have been doing research in this field, and doing experiments, and publishing data. That is a fact so plain that it would be difficult even for a creationist to deny it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:43 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:55 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 23 of 85 (674321)
09-27-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:16 PM


I need incorporate bacteria ONLY if I believe in evolution, which I do not. This is the standard textbook version of life, which I adhere to. Viruses are non-living because they are unable to metabolise on their own. They need a host. So basically, an organism that is able to metabolise on their own. And, no. I donít have to incorporate God into this. Since I do not know why you want it to be so.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:16 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 09-28-2012 12:58 PM LimpSpider has responded
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 09-28-2012 2:27 PM LimpSpider has responded
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2012 3:08 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 24 of 85 (674322)
09-27-2012 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:50 PM


No, Dr, you misrepresent me. Yes, they have been doing experiments, collecting data, etc. But. No experiment that makes life from non life. Per my definition. And yes, I'm getting about to reading those references, so I'll not be replying in awhile
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 7:50 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:03 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 25 of 85 (674323)
09-27-2012 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:55 PM


LimpSpider writes:

No, Dr, you misrepresent me. Yes, they have been doing experiments, collecting data, etc.

No, you are misrepresenting yourself. What you wrote was:

LimpSpider writes:

No new data has been released because no new successful experiment has been conducted.

If you now wish that you had said something else entirely, then that is not my fault for "misrepresenting" you. I answered what you actually wrote.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:55 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 8:50 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 09-27-2012 8:53 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 26 of 85 (674329)
09-27-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:03 PM


I believe I have added to that what I wanted to say. It is not a contradiction. The extensions to M-U, I would not consider new.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:03 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 9:02 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 9:05 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 27 of 85 (674331)
09-27-2012 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:03 PM


If you now wish that you had said something else entirely, then that is not my fault for "misrepresenting" you. I answered what you actually wrote.

Hrm, are you saying LimpSpider changed his mind and then used accusations of "misrepresentation" as a smokescreen to cover it up?

Impossible - I'm reliably informed that nobody ever does that at EvC forum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:03 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 28 of 85 (674334)
09-27-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 6:56 PM


Hi LimpSpider,

You seem to have forgotten the question you asked, so here's your question:

LimpSpider writes:

Simple question. What experiment has been conducted that expands successfully (as in the direction towards making life) Millerís original experiment? Can I provide the references tomorrow? Itís night here.

I pointed you to webpages at Wikipedia that contained references to papers about experiments that were follow-ons to the Miller/Urey experiment specifically, and to abiogenesis research generally.

You asked if you could provide references tomorrow, and I assumed this was a rhetorical question, but since you haven't provided any references today I guess you were waiting for permission. You do not need permission to provide references. In fact, it's in the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

  2. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

But given what you just posted I'm now getting the feeling that what you really meant to ask was whether we've successfully synthesized life in the lab. The answer is no, not yet.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 6:56 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 29 of 85 (674335)
09-27-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 8:50 PM


I believe I have added to that what I wanted to say. It is not a contradiction. The extensions to M-U, I would not consider new.

Ah, right, although new experiments have been performed, and new data published, you wouldn't "consider" these to be new experiments and new data, and you wouldn't "consider" their existence to contradict a statement that there have been no new experiments and no new data.

It's going to be very difficult to talk to you then. If you don't "consider" facts to be facts ... you might be a creationist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 8:50 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 30 of 85 (674336)
09-27-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 8:50 PM


I believe I have added to that what I wanted to say. It is not a contradiction. The extensions to M-U, I would not consider new.

You seem to be having a lot of problems with simple definitions. In another thread you didn't seem to know the meaning of "extrapolation", and now in this thread you don't seem to understand the definition of "new".

If a paper contains findings and information not in the original Miller/Urey paper, then those findings and information are necessarily new. Saying "I would not consider [them] new" reflects a problem with simple English.

I think what you probably meant to say was that you were expecting papers that reflected more substantial progress toward the synthesis of life and that you didn't find that.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 8:50 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 9:47 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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