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Author Topic:   Miller and Urey Experiment: What has changed?
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 31 of 85 (674341)
09-27-2012 9:46 PM


Nope, not rhetorical. Hereís the references:
Vogel, G., RNA study suggests cool cradle of life, Science 283(5399):155Ė156, 1999
Miller, S.L., A production of amino acids under possible primitive earth conditions, Science 117:528Ė529; p. 528, 1953 (Where he describes his experiment)
http://www.americanairandwater.com/uv-hospitals/index.htm (For the hospital reference)
Traps: Miller
http://wiki.answers.com/...enetrate_water_and_to_what_degree
Peptide bonds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolysis
homochirality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)

Racemate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racemic_mixture


  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 32 of 85 (674342)
09-27-2012 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
09-27-2012 9:05 PM


Yes, that's what I meant, Percy. Sorry about the mix-up. I tend to do that even in class. (Got scolded multiple times for mixing a "point" and "line" )
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 9:05 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 33 of 85 (674396)
09-28-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:54 PM


LimpSPider writes:

Viruses are non-living because they are unable to metabolise on their own.


I'd consider that an argument in favour of abiogenesis. If viruses have some of the characteristics of life but not all, then the distinction between living and non-living matter is blurred.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:54 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 34 of 85 (674405)
09-28-2012 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:54 PM


I need incorporate bacteria ONLY if I believe in evolution, which I do not. This is the standard textbook version of life, which I adhere to. Viruses are non-living because they are unable to metabolise on their own. They need a host. So basically, an organism that is able to metabolise on their own.

You lost me in there somewhere.

Can bacteria "metabolize on their own?" Synechococcus, for example?


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15480
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 35 of 85 (674408)
09-28-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:54 PM


I need incorporate bacteria ONLY if I believe in evolution, which I do not.

Uh, no, you need to incorporate bacteria if you think they're alive.

And, no. I donít have to incorporate God into this. Since I do not know why you want it to be so.

Well, creationists usually claim that God is alive. (And, of course, dead people too.) So it would be nice if one of them just once would provide a definition of life under which this would be true. Is God "an organism that can metabolize on its own"? Not according to conventional ideas of the Godhead. So ...


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Replies to this message:
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 36 of 85 (674456)
09-29-2012 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
09-28-2012 12:58 PM


Actually, Iíve never seen a virus evolve the ability to metabolize.
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 Message 33 by ringo, posted 09-28-2012 12:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-29-2012 1:14 PM LimpSpider has responded
 Message 41 by Coragyps, posted 09-29-2012 1:44 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 09-29-2012 4:13 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 37 of 85 (674457)
09-29-2012 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
09-28-2012 2:27 PM


Yes I did. Sorry, I meant God. And, oh, no God is not bacteria... My thinking error
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 38 of 85 (674458)
09-29-2012 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
09-28-2012 3:08 PM


quote:
Uh, no, you need to incorporate bacteria if you think they're alive.

My error...

quote:
Well, creationists usually claim that God is alive. (And, of course, dead people too.) So it would be nice if one of them just once would provide a definition of life under which this would be true. Is God "an organism that can metabolize on its own"? Not according to conventional ideas of the Godhead. So ...

You see. I donít claim God is alive. I rather view it as God is beyond death.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2012 3:08 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-29-2012 12:30 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15480
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 39 of 85 (674487)
09-29-2012 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:16 AM


"The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted." --- Psalms 18:46

Of course, if you don't want to take the Bible literally ... then you could stop being a creationist now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:16 AM LimpSpider has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 40 of 85 (674490)
09-29-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:13 AM


LimpSpider writes:

Actually, Iíve never seen a virus evolve the ability to metabolize.


Viruses are pretty successful as they are. What environmental "pressure" would there be for them to evolve a fundamentally different lifestye?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:13 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 41 of 85 (674491)
09-29-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:13 AM


I've never seen a virus that was a bacterium, even on the evening shift.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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Percy
Member
Posts: 15494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 42 of 85 (674496)
09-29-2012 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:13 AM


LimpSpirder writes:

Actually, Iíve never seen a virus evolve the ability to metabolize.

First, understand that no one is proposing that metabolizing life evolved from viruses, not that that isn't a possibility deserving of consideration, but no one here is making that argument. Ringo was only saying that there can be gradations of life, that some "organisms" can have some but not all of the qualities of life.

But second, I'm concerned about the "I"ve never seen" part of your message. To put the concern in a context familiar to you, have you ever seen Noah's flood? Have you ever seen Jesus resurrected?

How much of the things that you think you know have you ever seen? You may want to do some thinking and investigating about the actual methods scientists employ to establish confidence in what they think they know.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:13 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:59 PM Percy has responded

    
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 43 of 85 (674501)
09-29-2012 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
09-29-2012 12:30 PM


I have told phat in a private message that I adhere not to a literal reading of Scripture, but to a literal-historical-grammatical-contextual reading (I think I said that somewhere on the forum too) And yeah, it was a private message......
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 44 of 85 (674504)
09-29-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
09-29-2012 1:14 PM


Which means that they would not evolve the ability to metabolize, right? So they canít be intermediate. They are simply too successful.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-29-2012 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-01-2012 2:50 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


(1)
Message 45 of 85 (674509)
09-29-2012 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Percy
09-29-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Ringo. Ok got it

quote:
But second, I'm concerned about the "I"ve never seen" part of your message. To put the concern in a context familiar to you, have you ever seen Noah's flood? Have you ever seen Jesus resurrected?

Good thinking. Hereís the fundamental difference between the two. We canít experiment on a one time event. However, if life evolved from non-life in the past, it should still be able to do so now, right? There is a distinction between the two. The first is historical science, and the second is operational science.

Historical science is interpreting data of one-time events according to a framework and on which we canít do experiments. Operational science is where we can do experiments.

quote:
How much of the things that you think you know have you ever seen? You may want to do some thinking and investigating about the actual methods scientists employ to establish confidence in what they think they know.

ĎOur ways of learning about the world are strongly influenced by the social preconceptions and biased modes of thinking that each scientist must apply to any problem. The stereotype of a fully rational and objective ďscientific methodĒ, with individual scientists as logical (and interchangeable) robots is self-serving mythology.í Stephen Jay Gould, 1994, Natural History103(2):14

Not that I agree with everything he says.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 09-29-2012 4:13 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2012 7:24 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 09-29-2012 8:12 PM LimpSpider has responded
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