What makes the Christian story so special?

Nope. God supplies the faith, God supplies the ability to believe. No one can work these things up in themselves. Well they can I suppose in an intellectual way. But that is not the same thing

Do, if someone does not have faith, nor the ability to believe in God, then it is 'God's plan"?? Where does free will come into play?Sounds very calvanistic to me.

That would make Christianity pointless. Anybody is a Christian, and they don't have to do anything. Making a decision is doing.

Great, we don't have to do anything, and, coming to think of it, Jesus didn't have to do anything either!Brian.

Krishna supplies the faith, Krishna supplies the ability to seek the
Great Liberation. No one can work these things up in themselves.

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"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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I don't know much about HK but would this statement be accurate Omni? Can a HK be assured of his final position simply by being a HK and without doing anything further? If not, I would insert this as another unique aspect of Christianity (or more acceptablely perhaps, the reformationist representation of Biblical Christianity). Such a Christian can't make or declare himself one - God does that - but once he is one his destination is assured.

Its a bit of a subject in itself to be honest Ramoss. And I'm probably the wrong one to ask about it being a relative newbie. Maybe Faith could give a better answer. But if pressed I would respond (somewhat in the dark-ly) as follows:God calls all people. There are none exluded from his call. A person can, of free will, respond to this call. The call has no obvious label 'God' attached but has an oblique reference to him. Nature, for example might cause one to pause and wonder. One may chose to suffer the pain of exposing oneself to the aching thoughts that fill the soul on exposure to a clear, star-filled night sky. To allow themselves to feel the insignificance of themselves as they look upon it (especially with even basic knowledge about the universes scale). For a person used to feeling like a master of his destiny such exposure causes the most indescribable of pains. Ones own choice to permit it's entryOne can either chose to continue to wonder (even if in the background) at the unspeakable yet undeniable effect such a vista has upon their innermost being - something far deeper and way beyond the surface posturing involved in the winning and losing of EvC debates (three fingers at myself here). Or they can chose to deny the undeniable. To bury it. To ignore. They can look away.The call of conscience is of the same order. A hole is percieved and an attempt is made to stuff that hole with all manner of things. Yet none satisfy, the hunger remains. Then one might read "I am the bread of life all who come to me will never hunger..." They may look away here too...or they may not and wonder at the man who said such things about himself: such fantastically outlandish statements made with such softness and gentleness.Free will to respond to the call, free will to look away. Perhaps I was being coarse in saying there is no doing involved. Perhaps there is. If so, it might be called "wanting-Him-to-be" (without knowing what Him is or that Him is a Him exactly). There is no action involved in simply wanting - especially since the want was instigated by his action upon us. Nevertheless it is not in any way by works - which implies the expenditure of energy in some way shape or form.If want arises in us in response to Gods call then we will be drawn closer. If don't want/deny then we will move in the opposite direction. I think that both are involved and that it can be a case of two steps forward and one backwards - or vice(sic) versa. I think too that what happens, is that at some point - via many such calls in many guises - the want becomes a yearning of intensity that a cry from the heart goes out into the darkness that surrounds.A cry made of free will, without belief-through-exposure. A cry to an unknown, unseen and unbelieved-in God. Then and only then, can he respond so as to be never exposed to the accusation of favoritism or having interfered with free will.Thats what I think. I know the reality of how He balances it all so perfectly will make my explanation look like the scrawlings of a child. Nay worse. But I know this no one will be excluded except those who exlude themselves. Total Justness demands that it be so.This message has been edited by iano, 22-Feb-2006 12:20 AM

See msg 22 nwr. It encapsulates it as best I can at this juncture

We are talking about creationism specifically rather than Christianity and Bible, right?I think, like Iano, that the Christian story IS special and, unlike all the others, IS the closest to the actual truth about what has happened regarding mans closeness to God. He came to us.Like I.R.H. says, though....fine and dandy.As regards education, no particular religion need be taught at school, aside from basic religious studies. The emotional, passionate, and, if I dare say "true" aspects of such should be taught at home and at church..(and perhaps a bit at EvC forum! )

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

Context, context, context. The decision won't be made in a secular educational setting. If a person does not have the faith, rationality(for lack of a better word) or ability to believe in Gods plan for their individual lives, they will be given the measure of faith required. like I said, Christianity begins when God reaches us...not when we intellectually postulate and/or "prove" Him. In other words, if you NEED to believe in God or if that relationship is a necessity for all humans, God will supply the measure of faith that you need. Yes, we don't have to do anything. We internally want to do things. Not because of a trade-off in exchange for eternal life, or anything that we get out of it. And that scripture is not talking about material goods only. We are Christians by spiritual adoption, but we are active participants in the family due to choice. Its not true. Yet it is true. (A Trinitarian paradox) Jesus had to do the will of His Father...it was something He could have shirked, I suppose...but that proves a point. Jesus did not have to do anything.....He wanted to do what He was called to do. And despite Him being God, the nerve endings hurt as much as any human would hurt. The emotional turmoil was there. Jesus was not like Superman. For God, it was a sacrifice only in that God gave a part of Himself which He did not have to give. It DOES mean that we don't have to do anything, but I would ask each of us to consider what we feel compelled to want to do each day.But enough of all this. I am dragging us off topic. Back to education and creationism!

Only according to the Christian view.Others will disagree.Still others will take the same 'creation story', and get a different moral lesson different than the christains have. For one, the Jewish faith does not believe 'original sin' , does not believe in the 'fall'
in the same manner, and does not believe in the need for 'salvation'.All from a different interpretation of the Creation story.

No, Iano, the Hare Krishna cult has about as much relationship to Hinduism as the fatal kool-aid Jonestown cult did to Christianity.

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"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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what about the others question/statements in the post Omni?abe: I means this bit

quote:

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Can a HK be assured of his final position simply by being a HK and without doing anything further?

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This message has been edited by iano, 23-Feb-2006 09:50 AM

Could you explain what is meant by this statement please, iano? How would this lead one to heaven?Whether or not christianity is unique in its concepts, seems to me, irrelevant. Does its alleged "uniqueness" equate with it being the right path? Why and How? Is this truly the case for a christian?

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"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

God is the one who makes a Christian and Christian. A few pertinant aspects of what that (ourely identifying label) means:A person who is not righteous (everyone is born unrighteous) gets their righteousness (something which is necessary for them to be able to "enter heaven") from God. They can do nothing to get it themselves ("all your (self-generated)righteousness are as filthy rags") The verse that is supposed to have smacked Martin Luther across the head and converted him was one from Romans "But now a righteousness FROM God is revealed"Man needs righteousness - God is the one who supplies it. Needing righteousness does not mean one is doing anything to get it. All we can do are things to ensure we need it more. We can sin.God is the one who saves a person, again from Romans "The Gospel (or Good News) is the power of God unto (or resulting in) salvation" Salvation is effected through the power of the gospel on a person - not anyones clever argument. A person cannot be reasoned into heaven. God must take action to reveal himself, through the Gospel, to the person. It is Gods action which lets man know God. Man doesn't find God, God reveals himself to man.God is the one who supplies the mechanism whereby a person can be saved. Make no mistake; God cannot do absolutely anything at all. He cannot, for example, ignore sin. To do so would be to act inconsistantly with who he is. He is just, and sin demands exposure to justice and punishment. But as well as being just and wrathful (against sin) God is also love. Thus a mechanism was 'found' whereby all these attributes of God (justness, wrath, love) could be equally satisfied. Without going into the precise details (and much remains a mystery) it might suffice to say that God was the one who provided the mechanism. The sacrifice of Jesus. God put Jesus on the sacrificial alter. What he spared Abraham with his son Isaac he didn't spare himself.In order for a person to be saved, they must come to understand their need for and desire salvation. This will not require them to understand salvation and what it means precisely. It is an affair of the heart (soul) - not rationally thought out by the mind. God cannot force salvation on people. But he can lead them to know their need and awake a desire in them. If a person is saved it is because God has shown them that they are sinners, has shown them that punishment is the rightful course of action to take, has shown them their need of a saviour and is the one who provides this saviour for them. One might come to understand the terminology only after the event (like me) but the embryonic, gut understanding of guilt and sin will be there eating away at the point of conversion.Salvation is of God completely. Man takes no action in obtaining it. Christianitys uniqueness in this area of prime importance (destination after life) doesn't equate with it being the right path in the least. It is a hint that it is the right path for one who is looking for a path - but not at all a concrete proof.The discussion is about the teaching of one or all faiths. My point was that if you chose to teach religous faith, then chose Christianity because it is unique in this most critical area. If one must and in order to provide a contrast, by all means teach any one of all the other 'faiths'. Because they are all the same in this critical area, if you can grasp the essentials of any one of them (what you do effects your destination) you can grasp the essentials of them all. Yup. God makes Christians. He doesn't unmake them though. For all the argument about the Bible and what it means, you will find that the mechanics of how a person is made a Christian are methodically laid out - but there is no methodical description for how a Christian is unmade. It's a one-way street Cookie. Once you are saved, you can no more lose your salvation than you could gain it. Its not yours to gain, it is not yours to lose. If you get it it is because it was given to you. A gift. Free. We just don't trust things that come stamped with 'Free Gift' on them.There are some obvious objections to this, amongst which: "does that mean I can sin all I like and still go to heaven - cool!" The fact is that you can sin all you like - except that if God makes you a Christian you won't like. You will sin, but you won't like it - anymore.I suppose it is only fair to issue a warning at this juncture: Christianity will change you irrevocably. Abandon hope of anything else all ye who enter here.Edited to make more precise and correct typosThis message has been edited by iano, 24-Feb-2006 06:45 PM