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Author Topic:   Take the state out of the schools!!!!!
mark24
Member (Idle past 3147 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 16 of 107 (26544)
12-13-2002 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Chara
12-13-2002 6:33 PM


quote:
You are absolutely right gene ... so who do you trust your children to? A teacher who doesn't know about science, who may or may not care that she does, or a parent who loves their child and desires for them to get the best education they can get, and is willing to do the work to make sure they do.

Perhaps leaving your children to people who are QUALIFIED to teach science would be the best approach?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-13-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 6:33 PM Chara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:27 PM mark24 has responded

  
Chara
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 107 (26545)
12-13-2002 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mark24
12-13-2002 7:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:

Perhaps leaving your children to people who are QUALIFIED to teach science would be the best approach?

Mark


Define qualified.

[This message has been edited by Chara, 12-13-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 7:22 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by joz, posted 12-13-2002 7:43 PM Chara has not yet responded
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 7:44 PM Chara has responded

joz
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 107 (26546)
12-13-2002 7:32 PM


Does anyone else think that Funkys mentor/apprentice vocational model sounds a little bit medieval?
joz
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 107 (26548)
12-13-2002 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chara
12-13-2002 7:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
Define qualified.

Maybe someone who has degree in a relevant subject and is qualified to teach?

You know those who might just have a better than superficial grasp of the subject....

No offence intended Chara, homeschooling certainly seems to be working for your kids, but I don`t think that the average parent has the capacity to acquire enough knowledge in every subject to do well by their kids...

If I had to educate any putative little Joz or Jozita I could do a fricking good job on maths, sciences and probably ecconomics and history but the poor buggers would be up the creek as far as foreign languages, art and music were concerned OTOH my wife could probably do a great job on those but I wouldn`t expect a lot from her in the subjects I`m capable at....

And at least one of us would have to work in order to keep the lupine pest from the door.....

We both have university degrees in different subjects but I really don`t think we could give any child of ours a good enough shot at realising his or her potential...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:27 PM Chara has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3147 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 20 of 107 (26549)
12-13-2002 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chara
12-13-2002 7:27 PM


quote:

Define qualified.

[This message has been edited by Chara, 12-13-2002]


Someone with qualifications in a/ science, & b/ teach.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:27 PM Chara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:50 PM mark24 has responded

  
Chara
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 107 (26550)
12-13-2002 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mark24
12-13-2002 7:44 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
quote:

Define qualified.

[This message has been edited by Chara, 12-13-2002]


Someone with qualifications in a/ science, & b/ teach.

Mark


Mark, I don't know for sure if you're intending to come across the way that I read your post, but I'm not going to disuss this issue any further. If this was a homeschooling board or an education board, maybe. I shouldn't have said anything to start with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 7:44 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 8:01 PM Chara has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3147 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 22 of 107 (26551)
12-13-2002 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chara
12-13-2002 7:50 PM


Chara,

Joz put it better in post 19 than I did.

This concept of homeschooling horrifies me. True, there are some shite schools, but how on earth can one set of parents possibly hope to compete with people who have done nothing but study subject xyz for 3 years plus?

I seriously worry at the parents agendas when they feel they have to homeschool their kids.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 7:50 PM Chara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 4:51 PM mark24 has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 107 (26600)
12-14-2002 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 2:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Karl, I've heard this argument before that parents aren't smart enough to educate their children. I don't buy that.

For the most part, I do. But there are always exceptions. I will say that parents ought to have the right to educate their children. I should also say that I don't think the teachers in my high school were smart enough to teach kids to spit.

quote:
Although I think just about any parent should be able to teach their children the basics in math, science and history, language.

Looking at the surveys that are periodically done to get a bead on the general education of people in this country makes one wonder.

quote:
The mentor/apprentice thing I guess is more in the choosing of work, after or during their education young adults can begin to apprentice for whatever type of work they think they would like to do.

Reasonable enough. Some High Schools have some focused course plans. I think this is similar to the way the Gymnasium in Germany was a hundred years ago.

quote:
I wonder at the necessity of this though it would seem to me that on the job training is much more useful. Even in todays system no-one wants to hire someone straight out of university.

Depends on the job.

quote:
So I just suggest parents hone their childs ability to think and reason

Ah... but you are asking a lot.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 2:25 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 4:18 PM John has responded
 Message 44 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:34 AM John has not yet responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 107 (26604)
12-14-2002 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by John
12-14-2002 3:21 PM


I just think it's a much better system, because the teacher actually cares about the child. It also allows the parents to actually raise their children, instead of leaving them to the charge of the public school system for 2/3 of the day.
I believe what Chara said, that teaching is not just feeding facts. I don't think you need a university degree in an area to teach someone about something. Teaching them how to find things out for themselves is more important than teaching them facts. My apologies to any teachers who may read this, but the public school system is a joke. 90% of the teachers could care less about their students. Will continue this later.

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by John, posted 12-14-2002 5:09 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

John
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 107 (26610)
12-14-2002 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky
12-14-2002 4:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I just think it's a much better system, because the teacher actually cares about the child.

Yeah, I can't argue with much of what you say. It is a tough call. True concern matters a lot, but so does a true mastery of the subject.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 4:18 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 107 (26658)
12-15-2002 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mark24
12-13-2002 8:01 PM


quote:
This concept of homeschooling horrifies me.

I don't see how this is horrifying. Unless you are scared that people might decide to think differently than what the public system would lead them to "think". Though I think this is the problem, that the system does not encourage thinking, merely a regurgitation of information. This is more horrifying to me.

quote:
True, there are some shite schools,

Only some! I would venture to guess most!

quote:
but how on earth can one set of parents possibly hope to compete with people who have done nothing but study subject xyz for 3 years plus?

Just because you studied a subject for 3 years doesn't make you qualified to teach. You may know a great deal about the subject but do you have a heart and a gift to teach it? I have run into teachers who are brilliant, but were terrible teachers.

I know Chara said something about learning together, with your children. This seems even better! Now not only did we learn together but we learned how to find out the answer. The effort of findig it out makes what's learned stick in your mind better. If someone just tells you something, I would think you would be more likely to forget what you have "learned", than if you found out yourself.

It is a parents job (imo) to instruct and raise their children. If the child is in the care of an institution 75% of their time, who's having the greater influence on the child? Does this institution love that child?

quote:
I seriously worry at the parents agendas when they feel they have to homeschool their kids.

If a parent loves their children enough to take from their own time their own goals/career, to guarantee that their child gets the best possible education, that's a scary agenda? For them to want their children to learn from a teacher who provides a loving environment, and one on one instruction is wrong? I thought it was us Christians/creationist who were paranoid seeing a conspiracy around every corner?

A parent who loves their child knows how that child learns. A parent who loves their children will go to all ends to provide a proper education. A parent who loves their child is a better instructor than a university graduate who is just making a paycheque. (again my apologies to any teachers who read this, I know there are some excellent teachers out there, I've had a few. There are just not nearly enough to justify this system)

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 8:01 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mark24, posted 12-15-2002 5:17 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3147 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 27 of 107 (26661)
12-15-2002 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky
12-15-2002 4:51 PM


Funk,

quote:
Just because you studied a subject for 3 years doesn't make you qualified to teach. You may know a great deal about the subject but do you have a heart and a gift to teach it? I have run into teachers who are brilliant, but were terrible teachers.

A non-argument. What makes you think parents are good teachers, anyway? They may think they are. If you had two people, one, the parent, & the other a qualified teacher holding a mathematics degree, who would most likely make the best job of imparting mathematical knowledge to the child? Do you see how silly your argument sounds? That there are bad teachers is irrelevant, their are bad teaching parents too. At least the teacher accredited by the relevant authorities.

quote:
A parent who loves their child knows how that child learns. A parent who loves their children will go to all ends to provide a proper education.

Well, that's nice, I'm sure.

Do you know anyone with a degree level knowledge of mathematics, English, geography, history, biology, chemistry, physics etc etc PLUS the relevant qualification in teaching? If not, how can you possibly equate a system that provides all of the above, with parents that may not have ANY of the above? If not, it looks like these parents never went to "all ends" to provide their children with a proper education, does it? It seems to me that the best way to get your children a "proper" education is to send them to school.

What is the real reason parents want to homeschool their children, apart from depriving them of day long interaction with large numbers of their peers? What are they afraid of, that their kids will catch evolution?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-15-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 4:51 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 6:20 PM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 45 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:45 AM mark24 has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 107 (26666)
12-15-2002 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mark24
12-15-2002 5:17 PM


quote:
A non-argument.

Woah there just because you don't like what I say doesn't invalidate my argument.

quote:
What makes you think parents are good teachers, anyway?

Well I should hope they are good teachers, that's what they signed on for when the brought a child into this world.

quote:
If you had two people, one, the parent, & the other a qualified teacher holding a mathematics degree, who would most likely make the best job of imparting mathematical knowledge to the child?

Most likely the one who cared if the child understood the concepts being taught. So I'd say the parent. For one a mathematics degree is not necessary to teach through to high school math. It was always my mother who was able to teach me mathematical concepts. The person with the degree was almost always useless to me. How does a university degree make you a qualified teacher?

quote:
Do you see how silly your argument sounds?

No I don't. No offence to you, but it is your argument that seems silly to me. You seem to just keep asserting that parents are stupid, and are hung up on some paranoia against a thinking population. You scared kids might catch a mind.

quote:
That there are bad teachers is irrelevant, their are bad teaching parents too. At least the teacher accredited by the relevant authorities.

That most teachers don't care about each child in their class is relevant. The fact that this system only works for a very small percentage of kids is relevant. You will also notice in previous posts that I said wise parents will get help when it is required. Also that I am not against post secondary educational institutions. I am not suggesting parents teach university level courses. Though I am sugesting that for most (not all) proffessions, the old system of mentor/apprenticeship is a better idea, with more productive results than class room instruction.

quote:
What is the real reason parents want to homeschool their children, apart from depriving them of day long interaction with large numbers of their peers? What are they afraid of, that their kids will catch evolution?

I would say the real reason is that the education system is non-functional, that it causes severe social difficulties for most children, and is in general detrimental to the development of their children.
There are other ways of providing social interaction with their peers. All sorts of organizations exist for this very purpose, not to mention the fact that children seem to just meet friends anyway. Music/art or athletic programs are great for this also. Not to mention they add to the education of the child.
It's not just Christians who homeschool their kids Mark, your looking through a limited scope there. It's nothing to get paranoid about. It's a one on one system that provides a more diverse and thorough education than a school can hope to provide. It's not a a creationist plot to eradicate evolution.

------------------
saved by grace

[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-15-2002]

[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-15-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mark24, posted 12-15-2002 5:17 PM mark24 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:52 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

joz
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 107 (26681)
12-15-2002 9:19 PM


Funk I learnt a lot of things at school that I wouldn`t have been able to learn at home, largely because my teachers all had a really good grasp on what they were teaching, sure I was awfull at languages, music and art but to be perfectly honest I didn`t care then and I don`t care now, others who did care did well in those subjects so it was no lack on the teachers part....

Amongst other things I also learned (profitably) that there are more optimists than realists in poker games and that if someone is bullying a friend facing off at them won`t stop it but beating the living piss out of them will....

In fact I really enjoyed school, apart from being expected to pray and sing hymns everyday and the fact that in 3 years of mandatory religious education all but 1 term was taken up by the cult of the Nazerine carpenter....

Why the hell would I want to trade an experience like that in for home schooling for my kids?

Now Mark what you have to understand is that the education system over here is very different, first off AFAICT kids have to attend the public school in their town unless the parents want to home school or go private and for most people that just isn`t an option, this means that if a school is piss poor the parents can`t vote with their feet and take their kid down the road....

Secondly I have witnessed, heck judged, the shambles that was a "science fair" at the school where my mother in law works, it was enough to make me want to teach any child I have maths and science myself...

To say that half of the kids there did not have a clue would be an insult to people that have in fact got no clue....

The thing is as bad as the system is here I think the answer is to fix it rather than scrap it, lets just call it a different perspective from someone who grew up experiencing a system that does work....


Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 10:08 PM joz has not yet responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 107 (26683)
12-15-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by joz
12-15-2002 9:19 PM


Joz,

Your argument is a good one, I tend to forget things are different elsewhere, the thing is I see this system of home education doing good on so many more levels. I think it would be good for the family unit (something that is nearly completely destroyed, at least in North America). Kids are being emotionally destroyed over here, by teachers and by peers. Why do you think we have kids shooting up schools, and difficulty with drug abuse in school aged kids? This is not normal/healthy behaviour, and it's getting worse instead of better. More and more kids are burdened with the importance of their education and more and more of them are giving up and don't care.

I found a couple of articles by home educators that some of you may find interesting.

http://www.newhomemaker.com/family/parenting/home2.html

http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1117378.html

I personally thought both of these article were very good.

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by joz, posted 12-15-2002 9:19 PM joz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-15-2002 11:43 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 47 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:57 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

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