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Author Topic:   Take the state out of the schools!!!!!
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 107 (26684)
12-15-2002 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky
12-15-2002 10:08 PM


Funk
So how do you compare a 'good' Chrsitan school vs home schooling? I actually agree with you that significantly more family involvement in schooling would be a great idea.
If I were completely redesigning school I would propose the following for primary and juniour high school:
1. Mornings: school-based learning (Christian school would be my choice of course)
Conventional academic learning
2. Afternoon: community/project/sports-based learning (optional home-based learning decidable by parent)
I really think kids spend too much time in academic classes but I also see the obvious value in having kids spend some time in this environement. Does it need to be 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for most of the year for 14 years?? Categorically, no.
The afternoon session would be run by the school (and optionally the kids could help/learn with their parents at home or in the family business) but be based on learning throuhg work. Visiting the sick, cleaning up a park, planting trees, weaving baskets etc etc. Alternatively parents could have the kid at home. I don't have a problem if the home-based learning was working for the family business or helping Mum/Dad at home in the afternoons. Others I've talked to see it as slave labour but I just don't have a problem with it and I think our society would be better if kids grew up seeing work as a part of their lives from a much younger age than they do.
Currently our kids come home from school around the time that Mum or Dad is getting dinner ready (unless your in the US and its time to work out which take-away to order). It seems crazy to me that for most of the day our kids are in the hands of the state and the TV. I'm convinced it isn't right. But I'm also equally convinced that academic learning is a fantastic leagacy that should be maintained - bu perhaps at half its level until senior high.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 10:08 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 12:01 AM Tranquility Base has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 107 (26685)
12-16-2002 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tranquility Base
12-15-2002 11:43 PM


TB,
This is also an idea I think is excellent, and probably the better bet. It is more practical than trying to completely scrap a system. However I am still a firm advocate of home schooling I think it's the best system. I wish more parents would see the benefit of this. I admit it would take alot more effort on the parents part to educate their child as opposed to just sending them off to school. But what better investment of a parents time/effort is there than into the lives of their children?
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-15-2002 11:43 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-16-2002 12:36 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 107 (26690)
12-16-2002 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 12:01 AM


I agree with you but I thnk it needs to be balanced out by a 50% contribution from professional educators. The issue of getting the sate out of it then becomes an issue of finding a good Christian school. On the other hand if the parenting really is done properly it doens't matter what school the kids go to. And in the system I outlined kids would spend an afternoon with paetns or community projects than they do now. In my proposal I would also suggest that optionally the parents at home got inovled in the afternnon community/sport sessions if they could.
I don't really agree that every parent needs to become an academic educator. In a good Christian society we should be able to trust our kids for half a day to teachers. With good parenting we should be even be able to trust our kids to the world for a mrning. But is it good to trust the mto the world for the whole day and the n TV when they get home? That's where it crosses the line and things go wrong even in Christian households.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 12:01 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 12:45 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 107 (26691)
12-16-2002 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tranquility Base
12-16-2002 12:36 AM


True this makes sense like I said before. I agree with you completely.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-16-2002 12:36 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 35 of 107 (26697)
12-16-2002 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 12:45 AM


I'm curious Funk (or anyone, for that matter). Does anyone have any statistics on success rates for homeschooled vs "traditional education"? I'm aware that it would have to be filtered to take into account the relative difference in overall numbers, but it should be possible to at least make some comparisons. What percentage of homeschooled kids go on to become scientists, engineers, mathematicians, historians, politicians, etc? Any data out there, or is this too new a phenomena?
As for me personally, even if we were independently wealthy and had no need for jobs, neither my wife nor I would be very good homeschoolers. In spite of various advanced degrees, we both have gaps in our knowledge base - sometimes things that we might not even be aware of. OTOH, I DO agree that any parent who doesn't take the responsibility to supplement regular schooling at home is shirking responsibility. Schools tend to target an average (and in the worst cases, the least common denominator). My wife and I, for instance, spend quite a bit of time expanding or covering subjects that aren't taught, or not taught as deeply as the kids want/need. In my case, #1 daughter is fascinated by science (specifically biology and natural history). Although the school program is a good one, she wants more on specific subjects/concepts - which I provide. The school also does a good job with general world history, but lacks specific focus on US history - so my wife covers that (one of her areas of expertise is US government, strategic policy, and public administration). All in all, I think our kids are getting a great education between the school and home. I would argue that you can't have one without the other, based on our experience.
Just my two cents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 12:45 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 2:54 AM Quetzal has not replied
 Message 37 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 3:26 AM Quetzal has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 107 (26698)
12-16-2002 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 2:48 AM


Okay I can see that, and I'm so very glad that you are able to get the best out of the system for your kids, that's awesome to hear! To be honest most of what I know of the public school system is negative. I run into more people damaged by it than enriched through it. I am happy to hear that this is not always the case. Though I think North America could definately use a major revamping of it's educational system. A change to incorporate and encourage parental involvment in the guidance and refining of our young minds. I can look for some statistics.
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saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 AM Quetzal has not replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 107 (26701)
12-16-2002 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 2:48 AM


http://www.utah-uhea.org/stats.html
this is one link I found so far, seems to show success from the homeschooling aproach.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 4:05 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 38 of 107 (26705)
12-16-2002 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 3:26 AM


Hi funk - I'm gonna hit both posts in this one.
Your message #36: Yeah, I realize we're lucky. I'll confess we're not in a US public school (although we had them there for a year awhile back), primarily because we're not in the US . They've been enrolled in an international baccalaureate program for the last three years, being exposed to not only a top-flight academic curriculum, but also to a huge diversity of kids from other cultures (there are currently 26 nationalities in a school with 160 kids k-12), small classes (average size 8-10), and professional, carefully selected international teachers. So don't go by my own experience when judging US schools. Which is why I don't condemn homeschooling outright (although I'm not sure whether it would be a viable option for us). OTOH, the one year they were in US public school, it was a "magnet" school in Arlington VA, so probably was much better overall than the average. If we have to go back to the States, we'll be looking for another magnet or a school with an IB program.
Your message #37: Thanks for the statistics. Actually it doesn't show much. The reason I say this is because they are going by standardized tests - which generally only cover math and English. From the one homeschool family I know, those are the two areas where homeschooling generally excells: their kid was reading at 3 grade-levels higher, and two math levels higher than the other kids her age. However, her history, social studies, etc were only average, and her science was abysmal. Great at art and drama, but petrified of performing to a group of peers (no problem with adults, tho'). Also, she was not really well socialized: she got along MUCH better with adults than with other kids her age, whom she really didn't feel comfortable with. Sweet, well-adjusted kid, just think she might have been missing out on something. It also points up the problem others have mentioned - homeschooling is ideal when the parents have sufficient knowledge in all subject areas and/or the ability to learn new material. However, no one is an expert on all subject areas, and once a kid hits high-school level, you're probably going to need help, unless you're simply "teaching to the test" to pass the standard exams.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 3:26 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 4:19 AM Quetzal has not replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 107 (26706)
12-16-2002 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 4:05 AM


Quetzal,
First off glad to see you've forgiven me (or seem to have) for my blow up in another thread, I appreciate the ability to forgive in a person. Another thing that maybe needs clarification in this thread is that I'm not in the U.S either and have never lived there. I am in Canada always have been, so my knowledge of the U.S public school system is mostly second hand. Except for a couple friends who have dual citizenship and have attended public school in both countries I don't have alot of knowledge of the system in the U.S. Though I'm guessing it's even further down the tube than ours, Canadians are a little bit slower in the degradation process.
Quetzal I will continue to search for more statistics to support my opinion, realizing I should have done this to begin with. I am leary of stats mind you, if you really search hard enough you can find statistics to support just about anything. It's like hockey stats, they don't always reflect the best player on the ice, eh. lol.. I will see if I can find some more reliable statistics, I see where the ones I provided are limited, to be honest I just took the first ones I found. Thanx for the input to this discussion though, it has made me think my position over.
I should also point out that I completely agree with TB (posts #31 & #33). I have taken an extreme position for the sake of debate. Though I still assert that in some cases, and maybe even most the parents could even teach the academic areas as well.
------------------
saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 4:05 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 5:25 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 107 (26711)
12-16-2002 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 4:19 AM


Another article of interest to this topic.
An A for Home Schooling: It’s giving 2 million kids a good education, sound values, and a rich family life. If unaccredited parents can do it, why can’t the public schools? | City Journal
will continue to search for stats. Despite my skepticism of the credibility of statistics.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 4:19 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 12-16-2002 9:48 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 48 by obsidian, posted 12-17-2002 11:05 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 107 (26726)
12-16-2002 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by funkmasterfreaky
12-11-2002 7:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
No what I was suggesting is that children be schooled by their parents/whoever there parents would have school them. It's not up to the state anyways. Those children do not belong to them. Let the parents raise and teach their children the way it was meant to be.

Ok so stupid parents would raise stupid kids who would then go on to raise even more stupid kids.. Thanks but I prefer the teaching to be left to people somewhat qualified..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-11-2002 7:08 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 107 (26731)
12-16-2002 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 5:25 AM


I thought I would comment on this thread because I have been teaching Religious, Moral and Philosophical Studies in Scottish High Schools since January 1998. I am currently supply teaching partime to help fund a M.th course.
To teach in Scotland you need a degree relevant to the subject you want to teach, and you also need to have a certificate or diploma in education.
Home schooling isn't as popular here as it is in the States and I cann0t see it ever being so. There are various reasons for this.
1. The average person is not qualified in enough subjects to give a child a good all round education. It may be acceptable to some people to 'learn together' but being one chapter ahead of your children is not good practice, you need knowledge of a subject that goes beyond the curriculum in order to expand on lessons.
2. A child also needs to learn social skills, they need to interact with their peers and different children respond to different teaching methods. Some people might be happy to have their 'home schooled' children pass some exams with an above average score, but chances are that they could achieve far higher scores if taught in a school.
3. Children need practical lessons as well as written academic ones, they need phys ed., art, technical studies, cooking, music, and sciences. This is probably beyond any one individual's capability to achieve. An individual MAY be abe to teach all of these to a certain level but it will be nowhere near the level that a teacher can teach it to.
4. There's also a danger of parent bias. Take my subject for example, Religious Studies, we are told to teach it from a nonconversional stance, if we are caught promoting a certain belief over another we MAY lose our jobs. Children should be free to make up their own minds about their beliefs but how many christian parents can honestly say that they would teach Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Sikhism, and Judaism with the same enthusiasm as they would teach Christianity?
How many would teach their children that there are major problems with the Bible; How many would teach that creation is true and evolution false; How many would teach that the Bible has been edited many times to remove glaring errors?
Best Wishes.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 5:25 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 107 (26976)
12-17-2002 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
12-11-2002 9:07 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
What you are (realistically) suggesting is more input from the locally elected school councils. This already occurs in some regions doesn't it? And in some schools in the USA creation can be taught alongside evolution.
Not in publically-funded schools. Religious private schools can teach and pseudoscience they want to.
Tell me, how many of the hundreds of creation stories from around the world do you think those schools teach?
quote:
With a particualrly slanted school baord one could probably even ban macroevolution. True?
Yes, but it wouldn't last long in the courts.
quote:
The real issue is that one is up against democray. IN the USA, andnowhere else really, it is possible to have a mojity of 6-day creation believers. I prefer the idea of a good Christian school rather than relyingon conveniently slanted majorities.
It is also possible, say in parts of NYC, to have a majority of Hindus or Buddhists or Native Americans in the southwest, each with a non-Christian religion and each with their own different creation story.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-11-2002 9:07 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 107 (26977)
12-17-2002 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by John
12-14-2002 3:21 PM


quote:
So I just suggest parents hone their childs ability to think and reason
quote:
Ah... but you are asking a lot.
Yes, considering that today more people in the US than ever believe in silliness like homeopathy, magnet therapy, and psychic's ability to talk to the dead.
It is too much to ask people to think critically when uncritical thought is at an all time high among our population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:14 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 107 (26979)
12-17-2002 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by mark24
12-15-2002 5:17 PM


quote:
What makes you think parents are good teachers, anyway? They may think they are. If you had two people, one, the parent, & the other a qualified teacher holding a mathematics degree, who would most likely make the best job of imparting mathematical knowledge to the child? Do you see how silly your argument sounds? That there are bad teachers is irrelevant, their are bad teaching parents too. At least the teacher accredited by the relevant authorities.
I shudder to think of what my life would have been like if I had been home schooled.
See, I grew up in a emotionally abusive home. My parents did not like each other, and I don't think they liked their four children, either. I don't ever remember either of my parents reading a book to me.
My mother would have resented like HELL having to teach me, and it would have meant that I wouldn't have had the relief of escaping that house five days a week.
Neither one of my parents are good teachers. My mother was highly critical of everything I ever did and my father just yelled at me when I did anything wrong. (you should have seen him trying to teach me to drive a stickl shift. I sat with him in the car once and then taught myself from then on. The prospect of killing myself or having the transmission leap out of the hood of the car was less scary than having him in there with me)
quote:
A parent who loves their child knows how that child learns. A parent who loves their children will go to all ends to provide a proper education.
That is assuming that every parent is emotionally prepared to be a parent, let alone a teacher.
My mother never figured out how I learned. I had to figure out how to not get yelled at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mark24, posted 12-15-2002 5:17 PM mark24 has not replied

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