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Author Topic:   A Guide to Creationist Tactics
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 91 of 136 (571687)
08-01-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by crashfrog
08-01-2010 11:32 PM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
I agree with you to a point.

I think one either believes in something, or doesn't believe in something to a certain level of certainty; but I have to allow for a third mindset-one in which people basically just say "I have no idea."

Its hard to call that thinking a belief or rejection of either. I guess it is sort of like saying I just can't decide. I suspect there are a lot of people who think like that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by crashfrog, posted 08-01-2010 11:32 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 12:16 AM Bolder-dash has responded
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Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 92 of 136 (571690)
08-02-2010 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 11:56 PM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
But this is a special case - which is why I prefer the word 'faith'.
Faith is clear to me - it means belief without or even in spite of evidence.
Belief on the other hand is way too vague - any scientist would have to say that everything they understand to be true is a belief.
So we then use the same word for belief in the sky fairy as we do for acceptance of gravity...

Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 11:56 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-02-2010 12:40 AM Bikerman has responded

    
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 93 of 136 (571692)
08-02-2010 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Bikerman
08-02-2010 12:16 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
Of course. I don't think many would argue that belief in a faith is the same as belief in things you experience with your senses. Well, some may claim that, but I don't go along with that.

However, for many its more than just an illogical, half thought out whim. It is a combination of observing the world around them, and seeing evidence for a synchronicity that goes beyond what chaos could be imagined to create, as well as an evaluation of life's experiences. A thinking person can draw conclusions of what they experience in their daily life-of consequences for our actions beyond the naturalistic means, of coincidence, and karma and externally derived insight.

Heck, you know it yourself intuitively I think-even if you don't like to admit it. The laws of nature themselves, of QM and relativity and the machine that is the universe, defy a belief in chaotic and intervention-less matter.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 12:52 AM Bolder-dash has responded
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Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 94 of 136 (571693)
08-02-2010 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by crashfrog
08-01-2010 11:32 PM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
quote:
Persons who do not believe in the existence of Zeus and Ares must necessarily be people who believe in the non-existence of Zeus and Ares.

Tut! If you are going to pick me up on a tautology then make sure it wasn't your selective quote that introduced it, eh?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by crashfrog, posted 08-01-2010 11:32 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2010 12:54 AM Bikerman has responded

    
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 95 of 136 (571694)
08-02-2010 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Bolder-dash
08-02-2010 12:40 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
quote:
Heck, you know it yourself intuitively I think-even if you don't like to admit it. The laws of nature themselves, of QM and relativity and the machine that is the universe, defy a belief in chaotic and intervention-less matter.

Sorry but this is nonsense. It is best not to talk about QM unless you have a vague understanding of it. QM tells us precisely that the world is random (not chaotic - different thing).
This is not even close to analogous to religious faith for reasons you must have been given many times and yet chosen to regard as not worth mentioning.....evidence? Repeatability?
What you perceive as a logically thought out belief system could well be a psychotic irrational hallucination. How would you know?
I know that QM and relativity are nothing of the sort because other people can check my workings and I can check theirs. There is no chance of it being just wishful thinking or a delusion because we insist on repeatability wherever possible, as well as evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-02-2010 12:40 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-02-2010 1:32 AM Bikerman has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 136 (571695)
08-02-2010 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Bikerman
08-01-2010 11:49 PM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
The reason is : person A has never heard of God B. They take no position from ignorance rather than belief/fait

Sure, but as soon as we inquire as to their position, and explain to them exactly what we're talking about, they're by definition now someone who has heard of God B.

So the case where someone has no conception of what we're talking about is really very much a corner case. Anyone actually participating in the discussion can't be described by that case; certainly anyone who says "I don't believe in the non-existence of God; I just don't believe in the existence of God" is someone for whom, logically, that statement can't be true.

We live in societies that brand children by religion from birth.

True. Of course, one of the privileges of parenthood is the right and ability to instruct your child in whatever you think is right. As long as atheists are a minority, working to end that privilege is far more likely to be harmful to our children than helpful to theirs.

It would be very contentious for me to say my 3 year old* was a Marxist, but not to say he is a Christian.

Neither would it be contentious to say that he was white (assuming you are), or that he was British. If you ask me it's largely the result of the fact that we allow positions on matters of fact to be considered issues of personal identity.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 136 (571696)
08-02-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 11:56 PM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
I think one either believes in something, or doesn't believe in something to a certain level of certainty; but I have to allow for a third mindset-one in which people basically just say "I have no idea."

Again I continue to be of the position that this is a result of someone's position on certainty, not their position on God.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 136 (571697)
08-02-2010 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bikerman
08-02-2010 12:44 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
I apologize if you feel that you've been misleadingly quoted. Perhaps I just didn't understand what that example was meant to get at.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 12:44 AM Bikerman has responded

Replies to this message:
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Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 99 of 136 (571699)
08-02-2010 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Bolder-dash
08-02-2010 12:40 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
quote:
It is a combination of observing the world around them, and seeing evidence for a synchronicity that goes beyond what chaos could be imagined to create, as well as an evaluation of life's experiences. A thinking person can draw conclusions of what they experience in their daily life-of consequences for our actions beyond the naturalistic means, of coincidence, and karma and externally derived insight.
Nononono. Evidence is more than personal conviction. What you call evidence I call belief. Evidence that you cannot test is little better than hearsay (and yes, I include eye witness testimony in that - horribly unreliable as has been comprehensively shown many times).
Chaos has a particular meaning which is not what you intend to say, so perhaps better to use 'meaningless' or 'uncaring'.
We know what can be produced by mindless systems - we are examples.
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Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 100 of 136 (571700)
08-02-2010 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by crashfrog
08-02-2010 12:54 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
The word God was key. I asked if she believed in the Gods x and y. The existence of the people x and y is distinct from that - particularly chosen because the romans in particular had a habbit of deifying people (and the odd horse) :-)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2010 12:54 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 136 (571701)
08-02-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Bikerman
08-02-2010 1:02 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
The word God was key. I asked if she believed in the Gods x and y.

I changed the names to their Greek equivalents because I didn't want to have to say "the Gods" to distinguish them from the planets. It wasn't my intent to engage in shenanigans, I promise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 1:02 AM Bikerman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 1:07 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 102 of 136 (571702)
08-02-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
08-02-2010 12:53 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
quote:
Again I continue to be of the position that this is a result of someone's position on certainty, not their position on God.
Only to a limited extent.
Yes, a true scientist has a distinct position on certainty, I agree. But for all practical purposes we all have degrees of certainty and uncertainty so there is no principled difference. I know the difference between something highly probable and something with no evidential basis that might nontheless be true. I don't think the difference is in the understanding of certainty - although I would agree that many people are far too ready to use the word for things that are anything but. My take is that the important difference is in the meaning and usage of the words - particularly belief.
This message is a reply to:
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Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 103 of 136 (571703)
08-02-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by crashfrog
08-02-2010 1:04 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
Hey no problemo - I was just mildly rebuking a mild rebuke - let's not fall out over such a minor thing :-)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2010 1:04 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 136 (571704)
08-02-2010 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Bikerman
08-02-2010 1:07 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
Forgotten!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 1:07 AM Bikerman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Bikerman, posted 08-02-2010 1:14 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 105 of 136 (571705)
08-02-2010 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by crashfrog
08-02-2010 1:09 AM


Re: cognitive dissonance and belief
Likewise :-)
Now, on the main point, I think that if our vocab distinguished lets say 10 different levels of certainty, starting with wo-faith* for something with evidence against it and ending with anbelief* for something which to all intents and purposes is a fact, then we would be on much firmer ground and the wriggle-room exploited by many of the faithful would be severely restricted.

*obviously silly examples but a serious point :-)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2010 1:09 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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