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Author Topic:   Creationism on rise
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 16 of 32 (93592)
03-20-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Lindum
03-20-2004 5:36 PM


Re: What do you expect?
Is this really what happens in US schools? Educated in the UK, I recall no teaching of evolution theory, but I was forced to read Genesis at primary school (4-11 years old).
In reality, Evolution is taught at most but not all U.S. public schools to children in their early teens, always as part of a more-widely focused course (general science or biology), and it's unlikely that a student will be exposed to it for more than a term (half a school year) or so before college. Of course, there's going to be a few terms in which they are introduced to astronomy, physics, geology, paleontology, and similar sciences that the YEC's don't like.
Study of Genesis is rare in U.S. public schools but is found occasionally, in compararive religion classes, in conjunction with studying other religious works.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 32 (93611)
03-20-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by JonF
03-20-2004 10:19 AM


quote:
A depressingly large number of Americans believe in recent special creation of humans.
depressing...

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5117 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 18 of 32 (93815)
03-22-2004 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
03-20-2004 5:21 PM


Contrary to popular opinion...
...I find that many of my students are biased against or profess naive or ignorant assumptions about evolution. If what buzsaw says is true, then why do most of my freshmen (I would say 2 out of every 3) have major misconceptions/outright hostility towards a robust scientific theory like evolution?
In my neck of the woods, I find that the anti-intellectual "ugly-stick" is swung by several groups.
1)Baptist and non-denominational churches that actually show films by creationists in Sunday school and preach against evolution and higher education in general. ("Girls belong at home and don't need an education", "Do not suppose that you can learn more than god", and "Education is unnecessary and useless if you want to get to heaven"(I actually heard these from a minister during several services I had attended for some "research" into the mindset of some of my students!).
2)Other "educators" that actually make snide comments about evolution and other science topics that are out of their areas of "expertise". Not to sound too stereotypical, but most of these people are young females teaching in elementary schools. In fact, I was talking about religious matters with an elemenatry ed teacher this past weekend and was taken aback when she brought up evolution. She was trying to tell me why she believed in God and that she feared that I was going to hell b/c I had "received the word, but refused it"! While asking me for reasons why I did not believe in god, she smugly said "I bet you believe in evolution"! How that was relevant to our talk is still beyond me!?! I didn't say anything about evolution during the entire conversation.
3)Parents with expertise in other areas that think their degrees in computer whatever and engineering and etc. make them experts at everything. "You are not going to teach my child about evolution are you?" "I was watching a show on TBN that said it would be impossible for life to spontaneously generate or for the human eye, blood clotting, bacterial flagella, etc. to evolve or etc..." "Isn't evolution just a theory?" Blah, blah, blah...
Creationists complain that scientists act like they know everything!?!

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 32 (93823)
03-22-2004 9:35 AM


Creationist Numbers
Information from several Faith Surveys:
(1) From Home page of the ReligiousTolerance.org web site, International Belief Survey (click) - Two international surveys were conducted during 1991 and 1993 by the International Social Survey Program (ISSP). This is currently located at the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago. Some of the results for the USof(N)A were:
(62.8%) "I know God exists and I have no doubts about it"
(33.5%) "The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word."
(35.4% --) "Human beings developed from earlier species of animals.."
They also had this note:
... since 1944, the Gallup Poll has been asking Americans whether they "believe in God or a universal spirit." The answers have always been 94% or more affirmative. These numbers have been so widely reported in academic articles, and the media that they have been almost etched in stone. However, the ISSP results are under 63%. The wide gap is probably due to the different wording of the question asked. The ISSP requires a degree of certainty of belief that is not present in the Gallup Poll. This shows that many Americans who believe in God are not that certain about their conviction.
That survey gives the {literal biblical fundamentalist} proportion to be 1/3rd of the general population. It does not give enough information to judge how many would be {secular \ non-religious}, but the {believe in 'macro'-evolution in human development} proportion is 1/3rd of the population (and presumably 1/3rd somewhere in between).
(A comparison of the US numbers to those of other countries is instructive.)
(2) From How Americans view religion in general (click) - A survey of American adults commissioned by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press was released on 2002-MAR-28. It found that:
(80%) believe that religion is beneficial
(13%) believe that religion is a bad thing
(65%) believe religion has had significant involvement in causing wars
This would indicate that 1/8th of the population is {anti-theistic} not just atheist or agnostic.
However, this datum does not tell us anything about the seriousness with which adults consider their faith. One source described the results of a 1993 in-depth survey of about 4,000 American adults. They concluded that:
(30%) are totally secular in outlook.
(29%) are barely or nominally religions.
(22%) are modestly religious.
(19%) regularly practice their religion.
This last survey would have the [secular \ non-religious] proportion at 1/3rd of the population and the [committed \ devout religious] proportion at 1/5th of the population, but it does not give enough information to judge how many of the (19%) would be [literal biblical fundamentalist] believers.
My personal conclusion from all this is that:
(13%) are [anti-theist] (hard core atheist)
(17%) are [atheist \ agnostic \ apatheist \ deist]
(36.5%) are [in between in belief \ other beliefs]
(14.5% +) are [literal christian to some degree]
(19% --) are [devout literal fundamental christian]
(3) There is more data from the nationwide survey done by the People for the American Way National Poll Data (click):
83% of Americans say Darwin’s theory of evolution belongs in the nation’s science classes
66% Support Evolution-oriented Positions:
20% say schools should teach only evolution, with no mention of creationism;
17% say schools should teach only evolution in science class, but would permit religious explanations for the origins of humankind to be covered in another, non-science class
29% would allow creationism to be discussed along with evolution in science class, but it should be made clear that evolution is scientific theory while creationism is a belief, not science
29% Support Creation-oriented Positions or both positions:
13% felt creationism should be taught alongside evolution
16% felt only creationism should be taught
5% are not sure
And there is more on other questions too: [qs]Agree or disagree: Evolution is one of those issues that is too important to be decided by each and every school board across the country. There needs to be a standard, national approach to whether or not Evolution is taught in the public schools[/i]
66% Agree
29% Disagree
5% not sure[/qs]
They also found that 45% of Americans had never heard the term "creationism"
(4) From A survey, commissioned by the People for the American Way Foundation
"found that two thirds of respondents did not see anything contradictory in the two versions of the origins of mankind - concluding that it was possible to believe both in the scientific account of evolution and the Biblical story of creation."
"To put it simply, this poll shows that most Americans believe that God created evolution," said Ralph Neas, president of People For the American Way Foundation.
"One of the most remarkable things this poll shows us is that, with this kind of broad public support, there shouldn't be any controversy at all about teaching evolution," said Mr Neas.
"The fact that there is a debate shows us how effective a very small but very vocal group has been in imposing their views on our schools.
"The poll should also be a warning to public officials and schools. If they cave in to pressure to eliminate evolution or to force creationism into the science classroom, they will be acting against the views and wishes of most Americans. "
And we don't know how many of the 1/3rd that do have a problem between their beliefs and evolution belong to the creationist mold, but this is certainly no 90% of Americans ...
(5) lets go to Kansas ... from Kansas Poll Reveals Strong Creationist Beliefs, But Majority Support Teaching Evolution
73% of those questioned believed in the existence of a deity. Another 12% "have some doubts," but lean toward belief in a God.
45% of those surveyed believe that a God created humans as they are within the past 10,000 years. 49% reportedly accept some variant of evolution, "with the vast majority of those saying God guided the process" notes the paper.
Despite the tendency to accept creationist accounts, 81% reported that they thought dinosaurs lived "millions of years ago," while 65% considered fossils to be evidence that some sea creatures had evolved into land animals.
52% said that they disagreed with the move by the Board of Education to "downplay" the importance of evolution in classrooms.
If Kansas is a Creationist stronghold, how come only 19% believe the dinosaurs did not live "millions of years ago" ??? Looks like the number is down to a maximum of 19% here ...
Note that this does not contradict the previous results but supplies some more specific data for evaluation -- notice the agreement between 65% believing that land animals had evolved from sea creatures and the 2/3rd figure supporting evolution above ...
Personally I think that the real numbers for the pure literal fundamental creationists is less than 20% nationwide. I also think that this number gets conflated by a 10% to 20% more for people who don't understand the distinctions (another poll has 50% of Americans do not know what "creationism" is) and that this makes up the 1/3rd figure.
Does Kansas represent the US? This is the way the numbers look to me:
15% Atheist or not answering
12% Agnostic ("have some doubts")
54% Believe in [not necessarily Christian] God (by deducting last group from 73%)
19% Creationist Christians (young earth, no old dinosaurs)
Notice how this compares to my other breakdown above ...
Enjoy.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 32 (93824)
03-22-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
03-20-2004 6:50 PM


Re: What do you expect?
In reality, Evolution is taught at most but not all U.S. public schools to children in their early teens, always as part of a more-widely focused course (general science or biology)
and in middle schools and high schools those courses are electives, not required for graduation (but recommended for those going on to college).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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Replies to this message:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5117 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 21 of 32 (93862)
03-22-2004 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
03-22-2004 9:40 AM


Re: What do you expect?
Actually, in Maryland and most other states, taking ("sitting for") a state-wide biology test is a graduation requirement at public schools. In these states, passing the assessments in biology, along with english, algebra and world history will eventually be required for graduation from high school.
The national science standards also include evolution as a key component of high school biology. I challenge you to find a science department from a mainstream, secular or non-fundamentalist mentality school that says that evolution should not be taught or will not help perspective biology, medical, veterinary, dental, etc. majors.
So, evolution is a requirement of the biology curriculum put forth by the US gov't in accordance with what thousands of professionals, teachers, community leaders, and institutions. I remember from one of the creationism trials (I think it was in Judge Overton's decision in Epperson v. Arkansas) that part of the definition of science was that "science is what scientists do". Scientists discuss the finer points of evolution and debate the mechanisms involved, but nowhere is evolution as a whole disputed except outside of science by non-scientists with agendas that are not based on increasing academic freedom or the attainment of knowledge.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 32 (93866)
03-22-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by hitchy
03-22-2004 2:19 PM


Re: What do you expect?
Here in michigan biology is not required for graduation, nor is proficiency in any subject -- you can "graduate" with a D average.
that is a recipe for trouble, unless you want illiteracy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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Replies to this message:
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Trofim
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 32 (94075)
03-23-2004 6:24 AM


Thanks to everybody for the answers!

  
mf
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 32 (94579)
03-24-2004 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
03-22-2004 2:42 PM


Re: What do you expect?
It is pretty hard to get out of taking biology here in MN. I assume that it is this way with most public schools. And besides, why would you want to get out of biology just because it teaches evolution basically as accepted fact, when there are people like me there showing that it is not at all a fact?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by mark24, posted 03-25-2004 1:56 PM mf has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 32 (94586)
03-24-2004 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mf
03-24-2004 7:47 PM


Re: What do you expect?
just because it teaches evolution basically as accepted fact, when there are people like me there showing that it is not at all a fact?
and what word games do you play?
Do you show that experiments that have observed change in species over time are invalid? or that all fossils are hoaxes?
Not having seen one of your posts before, all this is (at this time) is unsubstantiated bluster, so anty up.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

This message is a reply to:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5117 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 26 of 32 (94697)
03-25-2004 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mf
03-24-2004 7:47 PM


Re: What do you expect?
I think you are mistaken with your assertion that evolution is seen as a fact. Evolution is a theory. Theories are explanations of many natural phenomena (facts/observation) that are supported by hypotheses that have been tested many times. Certain aspects of what people like to call evolution are factual, such as common descent. With all of the evidence available to us now, it would be academically dishonest to deny that all living and once living organisms are related and share common ancestry. Every advance in genetic research provides further evidence for our interrelatedness to other organisms on Earth.
So, my question is--do you teach evolution as a theory backed up by mountains of evidence and if you do, do you teach it in a positive or negative light?

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 27 of 32 (94712)
03-25-2004 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mf
03-24-2004 7:47 PM


Re: What do you expect?
mf,
I assume that it is this way with most public schools. And besides, why would you want to get out of biology just because it teaches evolution basically as accepted fact, when there are people like me there showing that it is not at all a fact?
A scientific "fact" is not a 100% known, it is a theory that is so highly supported that to withhold consent is unreasonable. In the same way that electrons are considered factual even though no one has directly observed them.
I can show evolution to be a fact scientifically. At the very least you'll be reduced to a position where you refuse to address the salient issues directly. In other words, you will reject evolution unreasonably.
Want to play?
Mark

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 32 (94730)
03-25-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mark24
03-25-2004 1:56 PM


Fact and Theory
Evolution ... is it fact or is it theory?
A concise discussion of this that I have seen is from Talk Origins FAQ (click)
Q: I thought evolution was just a theory. Why do you call it a fact?
A: Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory.
I feel it is important to distinguish between
  1. the facts,
  2. the theories, and
  3. the science (fact and theory in an inter-related body of knowledge)
whenever discussing "evolution" to make sure each is on the same page.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mark24, posted 03-25-2004 1:56 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 29 of 32 (94752)
03-25-2004 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
03-25-2004 2:29 PM


Re: Fact and Theory
Abby,
You're preaching to the choir, mate
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 03-25-2004 2:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 32 (94760)
03-25-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mark24
03-25-2004 4:13 PM


Re: Fact and Theory
ahahahahaaaa
is there a {who's what} directory?
I haven't figured it out yet ....

This message is a reply to:
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