The Roman Catholic Church and Evolution

Since it seems you have some trouble reading it the way I do I'll do my translation again.Here is my judgement of what the Pope is trying to say:
The science based theory of evolution is well supported and more supported than it was 60 years ago. The church agrees with most of what it says.However, the Pope would insist the God started everything off 13.7 billion years ago and that the "spirit" of man did NOT originate in any natural way but was supplied by God.I am unsure of what he would say about the details of the origin of life on earth. I would guess that he would not agree with the literal truth of Genesis.If you disagree with this interpretation I suggest we both ask some Catholics to ask their church for an interpretation of the Pope's views.

Apostle writes:

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The purpose of this thread is to determine whether or not the Roman Catholic church supports evolution. Partly through my fault this has yet to be determined.

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Incorrect.You were directed to the statements of both Pope Pius XII and John Paul II and how both say that evolution as a means of describing the diversification of life upon this planet does not contradict scripture.The question of the soul is something else, but evolution never tries to talk about the existence of a "soul." It has no idea what a "soul" is, so how could it say anything about it?

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Does anyone have any evidence that the Church does support evolution?

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Yes.Read the statements of Popes Pius XII and John Paul II.They are very clear.Evolution is the only valid scientific theory we have to describe how life diversified on this planet.The soul, however, was a gift from god.

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It also contradicts the authorotative Catechism that Ratzinger wrote in 1996.

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The Pope outranks everybody in the Catholic Church.Pope John Paul II directly stated, in 1996, too, I might add, that evolution does not contradict scripture.

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I feel that the evidence overwhelmingly shows that the Roman Church is officially against the evolutionary beliefs on origins and ascent as well as the importance of man.

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There are no "evolutionary beliefs" as evolution is a scientific theory, not a belief.Too, evolution says nothing about origins. Evolution doesn't care where life came from. God could have zap-poofed it into existence and evolution is completely satisfied with that so long as that life didn't replicate perfectly from generation to generation.You're committing the logical error of asking a complex question. That is, your question is not about a single thing but rather is about multiple things, some of which are simply assumed.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I have several comments;
1. I feel that you have misinterpreted the Papal encyclical entitled Humani Generis (I think that is the name), as well as Pope John Paul II adress to the Papal Academy of Sciences. Having said this it does little good to merely state my opinion. To get more out of it, I may have to start a thread on each of them. In any event I have given a brief interpretation of the Papal adress in 1996.
2. It sounds a little to simplistic to state that 'Popes outrank them all' in an attempt to diminish the importance of Cardinal Ratzinger's Catechism, which by the way Pope John Paul II forwarded. The last time someone gave me the 'popes outrank all' arguement, I asked them if they knew who Ratzinger was. They did not. Do you?
3. Of coarse evolution talks about origins. While more of an emphasis is placed on change and variation, attention is also given to the question of origins.
4. While the question of whether the Roman Church endorses evolution or not may seem difficult to answer, an attempt is worth a shot, and is not my fault.Apostle

You could start by asking me.
Second you could check the most influential piece of Catholic literature written in a long time; that being the Catechism of the Roman Church by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
You could also read one of the best descriptions of Biblical Creation that I have read here, heavily influenced by Catholic thinking, on this very website. It can be found under the Miscellaneous forum under the topic 'Biblical Creationism.'
Indeed you could ask as many Catholics as you want. But this would not give you your answer as to whether the Roman Church supports it or not.
Apostle

I would like to read the statments of Ratzinger. Could you link to them and copy the relevant quotations from it to support your views.In addition, I would like you to state just what you think the position of the RCC is. Is it in support of fundamentalist literalist creationism or something else. If something else how different from literalism is it? If not different from fundamentalism then which fundamentalism is it in support of (there are a number of them).Does it matter if someone knoew who Ratzinger is? Isn't the Pope the source of "official" Catholic doctrine? (Not that every Catholic agrees with the Pope, but that is still the official line).

Apostle responds to me:

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I feel that you have misinterpreted the Papal encyclical entitled Humani Generis (I think that is the name), as well as Pope John Paul II adress to the Papal Academy of Sciences.

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(*sigh*) Now, what do you think "no opposition" means?And what do you think those "indisputable points" are?That's right...the physical body may have evolved, but the soul and the intellect are gifts from god.Yes, I know who Ratzinger is. And have you considered the possibility that you misunderstand the catechism?

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Of coarse evolution talks about origins.

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No, it doesn't. Why would it? Why would evolution care where life came from? When you do a chemical experiment, does it matter where the reagents came from? Do you think that oxygen collected from the electrolysis of water reacts differently from the oxygen collected from the exhalation of plants? Would hydrogen from water react differently than hydrogen liberated from an HCl reaction?When you need a quarter for the vending machine, does it matter if the one you use was last used in a video game machine as opposed to a parking meter?Why does it matter where life came from? Evolution is about what happens to life after it comes into being. Evolution is about how life changes and that necessarily requires life to exist first.Life could have come into being chemically through abiogenesis, supernaturally through god zap-poofing it into existence, extraterrestrially through panspermia or alien seeding, interdimensionally through a rift in space-time, or any other method I haven't mentioned. Evolution doesn't care. So long as life does not reproduce perfectly from generation to generation, then evolution is satisfied.Are you saying that god cannot make life that evolves?So if god can make life that evolves and if it turns out, as it certainly seems to be the case, that simple chemistry can make life that evolves, then why would evolution care about how life came into existence? How could you possibly tell the difference?

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While more of an emphasis is placed on change and variation, attention is also given to the question of origins.

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Incorrect. Evolution pays absolutely no attention to how life came into being. Instead, inquiries into abiogenesis ask those questions.You do understand that abiogenesis is not evolution, yes?

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While the question of whether the Roman Church endorses evolution or not may seem difficult to answer

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It isn't difficult at all. The Church has made direct statements about it twice. Pope Pius XII came right out and said there is no problem and John Paul II made a point of it: "No opposition."

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an attempt is worth a shot, and is not my fault.

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Asking the question is not a problem. Refusing to pay attention to the answer is.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

(1) I am catholic: I was baptized, confirmed, and haven't yet declared that I was no longer, and I'm still paying "church tax" (required from members of the catholic church in Austria)
(2) I had 12 years of catholic religion classes during my education (and yes, that's in public schools here in Austria)I have not a single time heard a (religion) teacher utter any disagreement with revolution.
I have not a single time heard any priest declare any problems with evolution.
I have a catholic bible (as stated above) that is officially endorsed by the church which explicitly states in the chapter of Genesis that it is not to be taken as an account of the origin of life.What exactly is there that you do not understand? I'll even scan in the page of the bible if you want me to (it's in German so you probably would have to take my word for it anyways)regards

Apostle:

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Of coarse evolution talks about origins.

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Rrhain:

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No, it doesn't. Why would it? Why would evolution care where life came from? ...

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Charles Darwin wrote:

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Origin of the Species

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Apostle and Rrhain are both right and both wrong. But the untimate origin of life is generally excluded from consideration in the Theory of Evolution.Even setting that aside, I must say - the THEORY OF EVOLUTION is made up by combining many, many smaller theories of evolution.Maybe some one would like to spin this off into another topic. I'm not going to do such.Geo Moose

I asked for evidence of the Catholic Church's support of evolution. Asgara mentioned the Papal address in 1996. Because this in itself is a new topic, I will post my analysis of the Pope's adress tomorrow, Friday December 19.This topic will remain on the general teaching of the Church, a teaching that we still have not been able to agree on. In the next month or two I will also be introducing detailed analysis on Pius XII's Humani Generis, Ratzinger's Catechism, and the writings of Pierre Teilhard De Chardin. All will be introduced as individual topics but this post will also be updated, however only with general teaching.I have come to realize that this topic is far more complex and detailed than I had originally believed. From my research I still conclude that the Roman Church does not support the theories of evolution but accepts the Biblical account of creation. (When I speak of the Church not accepting evolution, I speak of macroevolution).Apostle

How would you intend that we determine what the "official" Church position is?Do we have to ask the Pope? Can I ask a priest at a local Church? Would what is taught in a Catholic high school biology class be adequate? More than one? Is there a suggested course content supplied to such schools by the church?

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"From my research I still conclude that the Roman Church does not support the theories of evolution but accepts the Biblical account of creation."

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I'm sorry, but the current pope's opinion couldn't be more clear: He believes evolution is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. As to the older documents, they are superseded. I'm baffled that you think there's any question on this matter! Read what the man says! And yes, he means "macroevolution".

Another source, where to read the Pope's message, can be found at:
http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.htmlThe "CIN" is the Catholic Information Network.Moose

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From my research I still conclude that the Roman Church does not support the theories of evolution but accepts the Biblical account of creation. (When I speak of the Church not accepting evolution, I speak of macroevolution).

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The Biblical account in Genesis and science disagree on the origin of whales. The Popes address quite clearly indicates an acceptance of evoution with only one exception - the origin of the human spirit and mind. This in itself proves your claim to be false. There really is no complication.

Zhimbo,
Read the Papal Address to the Academy of Sciences, if you have not already then read my analysis. Then explain under that topic what part of my statement baffles you.
If you are referring to the address given in 1996, then you are mistaken in saying that the Pope mentions evolution. If after reading the speech you still see the word somewhere, please let me know.
Apostle

The link supplied above is refering to the speech you are talking about?It starts with:

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Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution
For It Involves Conception of Man

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and mentions evolution more than a dozen other times.However, on rereading it and noting the plural of theory, I agree that it is not as clear as I thought it was.I still think he is trying to agree with modern biology but is trying to avoid being to explicit. However, that might have to be sorted out from outside this speech.I'll let others argue the details but I'd say he is more agreeing tiwh most of biology than disagrees with it. I would bet a bunch that he certainly isn't a YEC and that he would agree that we evolved from non-human species. He would say that our sprit comes from somewhere else, however.Now how would we determine what the "official" position is in clear, unambiguous language?You have seemed to suggest that somehow or another what the Pope says isn't the "official" position. I find that astonding. So how would we determine that position? Pick one or two in the church who agree with you?