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Author Topic:   Why Won't Creationists Learn?
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 31 of 59 (232661)
08-12-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by arachnophilia
08-12-2005 2:24 PM


Re: dark ages
Part of the problem is that people never get any training on how to do a search using the internet.For anything of value, you should always go straight to the advanced search on google. I have often held that it should be mandatory on all university courses for students to learn a) how to search for information and b) how to use endnote*
* But that's just me
EndNote | The best reference management tool
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 12-Aug-2005 02:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 08-12-2005 2:24 PM arachnophilia has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 59 (232675)
08-12-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by CK
08-12-2005 2:31 PM


Re: dark ages
i used to the be the google king. people would ask me to find all the hard stuff for them, and i could in generally under a minute. advanced search? never used it. you just have to know the boolean commands, and the various google-centric commands.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by CK, posted 08-12-2005 2:31 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 2:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 33 of 59 (235534)
08-22-2005 1:21 PM


For randman. RE: Your new thread
There is one big mistake you made in the OP on your new thread. I choose to respond here because it is relevant to this thread and not yours.
That arguments are being made in ignorance of the actual science is not in dispute. The examples I used of Faith in the most recent thread are obvious to anyone with even a passing knowledge of formal geology. This pattern has been repeated countless times in this forum and probably will continue.
Moreover, after explicitly pointing out that, based on their statements, it is painfully obvious that their knowledge of the subject area is wanting, often the classical creationists will continue as if unencumbered by being called on their ignorance.
That this happens is not up for debate. What is up for debate is the why and if this type of behavior is intellectually honest.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-22-2005 11:22 AM

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 1:55 PM Jazzns has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 59 (235549)
08-22-2005 1:42 PM


Thread moved here from the Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution forum.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 59 (235558)
08-22-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jazzns
08-22-2005 1:21 PM


For Jazz, RE: This whole thread
Although you had this thread moved so that I could respond to it, I really never had any interest in responding to it. You have no idea how much study I've done in order to deal with the issues here, hours on geology, on the Grand Canyon in particular, hundreds of hard copies printed, and some on biology as well. I find it very interesting as a matter of fact, but I also have to say that the questions a creationist has are not usually addressed on most websites and that gets very frustrating. I try NOT to stick just with creationist sites but that's where the answers to my particular questions tend to be found. If they're to be found at all, that is, as some are found nowhere at all that I know of, though Charles' recommendation of the advanced search programs is something I will try eventually. I've followed up most of the links people have posted, and still you and holmes and others complain that I have no interest in learning anything.
Try asking a different question or something because if all you want to do is make the same old meaningless accusation I'll leave you to have fun with your ideological comrades, as I don't see any reason to stick around for the conversation.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-22-2005 01:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2005 1:21 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2005 2:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 36 of 59 (235566)
08-22-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
08-22-2005 1:55 PM


Re: For Jazz, RE: This whole thread
Thats fine. I just thought you shouldn't be shut out.
I don't undersant why this should be such a controversial topic for you. You yourself have admitted to lacking subject knowledge so the whole "obviously ignorant" part of it is taken care of as it is accepted on both sides of the issue.
The question of this thread is why you then feel justified in saying things like OE geology is "obviously silly" without even a reasonable background into what you are calling silly.
These are serious questions. You tend to take everything I say to you as an attack. This is not mean as one big ad-hominem. I really would like you input as to why you feel that your positions are intellectually honest. Obviously you feel that they are or else you would not be making them.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 1:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 2:30 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 59 (235571)
08-22-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
08-12-2005 2:57 PM


Re: internet searches
I think I'm pretty good at googling, though I wouldn't know a boolean from an Elbonian, or a google-centric for that matter. It's all a matter of figuring out which terms would show up in the site you would like to find, and occasionally using Advanced search to clean up language ambiguities. But I'm going to try Endnote too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 08-12-2005 2:57 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 59 (235575)
08-22-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jazzns
08-22-2005 2:17 PM


Re: For Jazz, RE: This whole thread
These are serious questions. You tend to take everything I say to you as an attack. This is not mean as one big ad-hominem. I really would like you input as to why you feel that your positions are intellectually honest. Obviously you feel that they are or else you would not be making them.
It IS an attack. It is NOT a sensible question. Please try to find a different way to ask it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2005 2:17 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2005 3:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 39 of 59 (235602)
08-22-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
08-22-2005 2:30 PM


Re: For Jazz, RE: This whole thread
I am seriously trying to be very objective here. Please, none of this is meant as an attack. This is a legitimate inquiry. I really am trying to reconcile this meta issue here.
We know by your use, and you have freely admitted to having a lack in formal science training.
Despite this, and despite being told this in the context of your argument, you seem to feel justified in your argument.
To those of us who DO have the formal training it looks like someone who is faking it. I have been using various analogies with little success it seem but it is like when a man who knows nothing about cars pretending to have a discussion with his mechanic about the workings of a car. Sure there are some things that are common knowledge but when he disagrees with his mechanic about something like the timing belt needing to be changed and cites some rediculious reason then it gives insight into just how much actual knowledge he had to begin with.
When this is finally pointed out. Why do you feel justified in sticking to your guns? We told you that your argument is in ignorance of the things being described to you. You admit ignorance in geology. If you don't understand the examples and the principles being described then how can you argue with us?
Main question in bold. It is like two cars traveling in opposite directions. We get frustrated because you are not engaging us on the points we are making. Then some of us have the lofty idea of try to teach you some of the basics so you can potentially debate us with REAL insight into the theory. At least to me, it felt like this attempt was treated as an attack on your person. If you don't want to be taught, just say so. NO one is asking you to believe in the theory, just know it so you can properly attack it.
You are a smart creationist Faith or at least you come off as highly intelligent. At a minimum you are a very good writer. Some of us really want to engage in an intellectual discussion on the real issues regarding science and science education with someone of the opposite persuasion. But if you can't even identify the position you are calling "silly" then how can we even have a discussion?
And another thing. Why, after being informed that you don't seem to understand the issues being presented do you still feel justified or intellectually honest in continuing down the same line of reasoning on a topic that essentially is fake due to misunderstanding? The topic literally and actually becomes nonsense because the thing being debated is not what is reality due to lack of grounding in what the theory actually says. You end up debating, dare I say it, a strawman but based on mis/non understanding rather than purpose.
I hope this is clear. Once again. There is no attack here intended. If you feel that there is please point it out so I can clear it up and we can go on with the actual points.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 2:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 08-23-2005 1:23 AM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 08-23-2005 2:46 AM Jazzns has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 59 (235746)
08-22-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
08-22-2005 2:20 PM


Re: internet searches
It's all a matter of figuring out which terms would show up in the site you would like to find, and occasionally using Advanced search to clean up language ambiguities.
well, boolean operators are a short way of doing just that. but figuring out which terms are useful (and which terms just get you crap, products, and pornography) is the hard bit. and it's only getting harder as more and more crap, products, and porn are on the net everyday.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-22-2005 2:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 41 of 59 (235808)
08-23-2005 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
08-10-2005 12:03 PM


Sorry for the late entry.
What I find interesting is the jump to acceptance based on the society they're living in.
The Christian becomes a Christian or just "is" a Christian in a Christian environment participating in a Christian society.
The agnostic looks at the Earth and sees many systems, many histories. This creates an opportunity to explore, perhaps before making a decision. Although for the most part, in my opinion, the journey never really ends.
I believe those two observations may hold the fundamental differences between a need, if you will, for knowledge and an acceptance based on faith.

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 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-23-2005 1:26 AM dsv has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 59 (235813)
08-23-2005 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
08-22-2005 3:05 PM


Re: For Jazz, RE: This whole thread
I lost a lengthy answer to your post earlier -- don't know what I hit but something kicked me completely off the internet -- and it's hard to get inspired to rewrite it. I'll try again tomorrow.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-23-2005 01:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 59 (235814)
08-23-2005 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by dsv
08-23-2005 12:59 AM


Re: Sorry for the late entry.
The agnostic looks at the Earth and sees many systems, many histories. This creates an opportunity to explore, perhaps before making a decision. Although for the most part, in my opinion, the journey never really ends.
I believe those two observations may hold the fundamental differences between a need, if you will, for knowledge and an acceptance based on faith.
This overlooks the fact that many people DO explore -- a GREAT DEAL -- before coming to faith. Exploration can LEAD to faith. It's not an either/or.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-23-2005 01:27 AM

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 Message 41 by dsv, posted 08-23-2005 12:59 AM dsv has replied

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 Message 44 by dsv, posted 08-23-2005 1:40 AM Faith has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 44 of 59 (235815)
08-23-2005 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-23-2005 1:26 AM


Re: Sorry for the late entry.
I didn't overlook it. I agree. That's why I said "in my opinion" the journey never really ends.
Certainly for some they find a religion and are at home with it. I think that's excellent and I would commend anyone that takes a truly unbiased journey in learning about a great many religions and is able to pick one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-23-2005 1:26 AM Faith has replied

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 45 of 59 (235817)
08-23-2005 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by nwr
08-11-2005 2:07 PM


Re: Learniing is hard work
nwr writes:
often notice this as an educator. The A students know that they are A students. The B students know that they are B students, and they have some idea on where the weakness is in their knowledge.
As a TA and tutor for physics and math, I too have noticed something similar. Professors send students who are failing to me. Sometimes, I have to spend long periods of time trying to convince them of some stuff that are really trivial to me.
For example, I once had to spend a long time trying to prove to a student that 1km=1000m. Sometime in the past, he had mistaken that 1m=1000km. When he was failing, they sent him to me. Even then, he was so convinced that I was wrong and that he was right. He finally yielded when I pulled out the answer sheet and showed me that indeed 1km=1000m.
Even though they are obviously wrong, it's the hardest thing to show them that they are wrong, especially when they are already convinced that they are right. When they fail, they blame it on their prof or their TA. They don't take the time to think that there's a reason why the profs are profs and the TAs are the TAs.
Creationists need to learn that there's a reason why physicists are physicists and biologists are biologists.
Oh my goodness, I just remember someone I helped in the past. He was failing physics 102 (the lowest physics level course anyone could take). Outside of class, I met him in the lounge so we started talking about physics. He claimed to have read many books and was very well versed in physics. I was like "oh brother..." but I stayed quiet and listened. He then tried to make a case that Quantum Mechanics was "crap". Ok, here's someone that couldn't even grasp the very basics of kinematics was voicing his opinion on the Schrodinger Equation. I mean, what the hell was he thinking?
People need to realize that the world is much bigger than what goes on in their tiny heads.

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