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Author Topic:   Why Only Creationism So Politicized?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 31 of 155 (38788)
05-02-2003 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by amsmith986
05-02-2003 2:50 PM


I got the info from a seminar By Ken Ham.
Ken Ham, eh? Has no one told him that 62,000,000 years is more than 6,000?

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amsmith986
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 155 (38810)
05-02-2003 6:44 PM


What does that mean?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 33 of 155 (38812)
05-02-2003 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by amsmith986
05-02-2003 6:44 PM


sediments
I've started (or will in a minute ) a new topic to discuss sediments if that's what you want.
However, if you think that the universe is less than 100,000 years you have to answer the SN1987A question. If that is unanswerable then any other YEC issue isn't worth discussing.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 155 (38833)
05-02-2003 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by amsmith986
05-02-2003 6:44 PM


That means that Ham maintains that the earth is less than about 10,000 years old, and that Ham's Flood might have a time depositing 62,000,000 years' worth of sediment in that span. See you on the "sediment" thread.

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amsmith986
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 155 (38835)
05-02-2003 10:57 PM


Where is question SN1987A?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 36 of 155 (38844)
05-03-2003 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by amsmith986
05-02-2003 10:57 PM


SN1987A
Message 22 of this topic.

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lpetrich
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 155 (42784)
06-12-2003 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
04-23-2003 4:27 AM


WEL, Lysenkoism
Andya Primanda:
quote:
FYI, there are other countries that endorse non-scientific issues in academia. Once I attended a lecture by an Indian scholar, Meera Nanda. She complained that there is a movement called 'Vedic science' propagated by Hindu nationalists, and it is quite successful in India. As a result, some pseudoscience such as astrology, numerology, etc. is taught as serious subject matter.
I've seen some articles on that also; IIRC they like to present some medieval Indian mathematicians' computational formulas as "Vedic" mathematics.
In the early to mid 20th cy., some other pseudosciences have been grossly politicized, it must be said. But even those have been the exception rather than the rule for pseudosciences.
In Germany, early in the 20th cy., the Welteislehre (WEL, "Cosmic Ice Theory") was proposed by the Austrian mining engineer Hanns Hoerbiger. The Moon is covered with ice, as are most of the planets. The Milky Way is a big ring of ice blocks. Ice blocks passing by the Earth glint in the Sun, making meteor glows, and when they hit the Sun, they make sunspots. The planets outside of Earth are covered with ice blocks, while those inside Earth are covered with fine ice from evaporated ice blocks. An ice block hitting the Earth causes a long line of storms.
The Earth has had many satellites other than the Moon, all of which had spiraled in, leaving big sediment layers. The Earth's current Moon was captured a few thousand years ago; it was captured not long after the Tertiary or Cenozoic Moon spiraled in, causing Noah's Flood and legends of the end of the world.
When someone pointed out how this or that set of numbers did not work out correctly, Hoerbiger would respond, "Calculation can only lead you astray!" And he claimed that astronomers had faked all the pictures that resolve the Milky Way into enormous numbers of stars.
His followers would heckle astronomers' meetings, saying "Out with astronomical orthodoxy! Give us Hoerbiger!" And would apply lots of pressure to get people to accept it. When Nazism was on the rise, the WEL guys attached themselves to it, saying how the WEL represents Nordic heritage and how Hoerbiger was like Hitler -- an Austrian "amateur" who got rid of those pesky Jews and their theories and activities. However, Hitler did not like the idea very much, and his government issued a statement saying that one can be a good Nazi without believing in the WEL.
After the war, the WEL dropped out of sight, but it revived some years later, but without the Nazism; the WEL guys eventually decided that the Moon's surface is not icy.
Going even further was Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union.
Trofim Lysenko was a crop-plant breeder and quack geneticist who claimed that he could alter crop plants' heredity in useful ways, and that he could do a better job of it than mainstream geneticists ever could. However, by the 1930's Lamarckian inheritance, the inheritance of acquired characteristics, was becoming totally discredited -- there was no evidence that it happened, and no mechanism for it to happen. Its last big supporter in the West, Paul Kammerer, had "evidence" that was discovered to have been faked, and he committed suicide in shame.
But Lysenko got some official favor -- official favor that extended to Joseph Stalin himself. And his Mendelist Weismannist Morganist opponents started getting in trouble for "Menshevik idealism" and other sins. Even the great biologist Vavilov, who had discovered the "Vavilov zones" where crop plants were first domesticated, was not immune. He stated that developing a certain improved breed of wheat would take about 5 years. Lysenko claimed 2. Vavilov was found guilty of being a British spy, and he died in a Soviet prison some months after that.
The triumph of Lysenkoism was completed in 1948, when he became head of the All-Union Academy of Agricultural Sciences. The remaining geneticists then "confessed" their "errors" and accepted the guidance of the Party.
Lysenko himself was practically a scientific illiterate; he had no idea of how to construct a controlled experiment, and he considered doing statistics a waste of time. His mentor Michurin did not need statistics, he would shout, so why should he? However, he likely got enough success out of continued crossbreeding to have a continual supply of "evidence".
On genetics, his views were almost too vague to be called a theory. But he believed that genes do not exist, that there is no distinction between genotype and phenotype, and that all parts of an organism contribute to its heredity (the old theory of "pangenesis").
[This message has been edited by lpetrich, 06-12-2003]

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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 155 (42844)
06-13-2003 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by lpetrich
06-12-2003 7:28 PM


Re: WEL, Lysenkoism
To add some more to the mix is the 'Islamic Science' movement. They are quite unheard outside Muslim countries, but they attracted young and eager Muslims. Sure, the Quran gave some scientific hints, but some of its readers went too far in interpreting and making predictions based on our holy book. At a conference in Pakistan in the late eighties, some 'Islamic Science' proponents revealed their research--one is measuring the speed of angels and another proposed to exploit jinns (spiritual beings, demons) as an energy source. They might have popularized science among the Muslim youth, but unfortunately they're promoting useless stuff...

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 155 (43022)
06-16-2003 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Andya Primanda
06-13-2003 5:03 AM


Re: WEL, Lysenkoism
quote:
They might have popularized science among the Muslim youth, but unfortunately they're promoting useless stuff...
I would say thay are popularizing pseudoscience rather than science.
Sort of the cache and the trappings of science without any of that tiresome intellectual discipline and rigorous methodology.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 40 of 155 (45182)
07-06-2003 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lpetrich
04-21-2003 12:39 PM


Ok lets generalize at least to the bias towards biological information. iPTERICH wrote -"Has anyone ever tried to find out why it is only creationism that is so grossly politicized?
Most other pseudosciences are not nearly as politicized.
One does not see astrologers demanding equal time for astrology in astronomy classes, despite the fact that large numbers of people seem to believe in astrology.
And one does not see supporters of various "alternative" medical therapes demanding equal time for their therapies and theories in class presentations on medicine.
Scientologists are not big on demanding that discussions of psychiatry give equal time to Scientology, for example.
It must be noted that the Christian Scientists are an exception; they had once tried to outlaw the teaching of the germ theory of disease in some places,"
So I leave onto this last indicated exemplar and begin going back up with the understanding that "alternative" medicine ALREADY has a legal history with respect to current western medicine and so NO politics (but that perhaps caused by "evolutionary" law) is needed nor need to KNOW but a problem even in this example remains. For instance, for years Becker has tried to get support for the body electric and the Chinese have treated 1,000s of tumor patients with electrolysis and yet this has not caught on in the west ( my guess is that Bohr's model did not begin but with respect to hydrogen but then I would be informing outside some bounds in this thread for material instance...)& when you asked "why only" I thought you meant why evolution is NOT politicized but I see you have not even this interest to which the thought of astrology in this case barely comes to my own mention but by way of analysis back as I am doing but I m not really sure I KNOW what you mean by polticized.
In my case than one would have to show that Cornell threw me out BECAUSE of this politization and yet I suspect it is more the case that elite institutions maintain their status ONLY by staying up with the pack that means that ANY whether religious, scientific, ligustic, behaviroal variants are not even joined with the advance that technology already provided students able to gain say the slower communications of the past in a more local area...thus I said that elite instutions RELY on LOCAL communications and priorty communications with other LOCAL (elite) instutions which puts the best biology on no other level than a Greek fraternity and yet the techonology allows distributed discussion and thus is against "evolution" only because evolution unlike other disciplies is primative in that Greek way which ONLY leaves "politiczation" much as the only way to change a fraternity is by force of another haze.

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Atapuercan Zusayan 
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 155 (70058)
11-30-2003 11:13 AM


"Has anyone ever tried to find out why it is only creationism that is so grossly politicized?
Most other pseudosciences are not nearly as politicized."
- but darwinism is politicized.
One does not see astrologers demanding equal time for astrology in astronomy classes, despite the fact that large numbers of people seem to believe in astrology.
And one does not see supporters of various "alternative" medical therapes demanding equal time for their therapies and theories in class presentations on medicine.
- You do not see. We do. Its called Holistic medicine.
Scientologists are not big on demanding that discussions of psychiatry give equal time to Scientology, for example.
- But psychiatry allready covers brainwashing, so there is no need.
It must be noted that the Christian Scientists are an exception;... Christian Scientists have been known to put air conditioners in their churches.
- Scary isnt it.
[This message has been edited by lpetrich, 04-21-2003]
Darwinism is not science, it is political well as us Zusayan folk know it, Philosohpy. Philosophical dialectic-materialism turned dogmatic and as ever unscientific and anti-scientific.
Unlike creationalism which much science supports so it should be recognised by the non-Zusayan barberians.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 42 of 155 (70059)
11-30-2003 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Atapuercan Zusayan
11-30-2003 11:13 AM


Welcome to the forum!
It can be fun here, but it isn't easy. Good luck!
Darwinism is not science, it is political well as us Zusayan folk know it, Philosohpy. Philosophical dialectic-materialism turned dogmatic and as ever unscientific and anti-scientific.
Unlike creationalism which much science supports so it should be recognised by the non-Zusayan barberians.
Do you care to demonstrate the assertions you have made here?
I think this thread might be ok for the politicalization of Darwinism bu the others belong in other threads.
"much science supports" -- some here have waited, with varying degrees of patience, for this science. There are lots of threads here for you to post your evidence in support of creationism.
I don't know how you want to organize your posts but you might start with getting the age of the earth right.
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Atapuercan Zusayan 
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 155 (70092)
11-30-2003 4:11 PM


11-30-2003 11:13 AM was not ment to be understood as the age of the earth. Honest.
There is no right answer to the age of the earth as it is a darwinian-inspired imposition with no scientific basis.
4600 million - Another presumption by the philosophers of the badlands.
------------------
Oinkus Erectus

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 44 of 155 (70093)
11-30-2003 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Atapuercan Zusayan
11-30-2003 4:11 PM


Those are all assertions! Could you back something up instead of just making unsubstantiated statements?
If you can't back 'em up then you might as well not bother making them.

This message is a reply to:
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Atapuercan Zusayan 
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 155 (70106)
11-30-2003 5:39 PM


Like wise.
So my little badlander, how then can the age of the earth be right - and what is right by your measurement?
Care to elaborate or did I?

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