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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 271 of 337 (664985)
06-06-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 9:51 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You are welcome to think anything you want.

The issue though is NOT SETI, it's ID.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:51 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:55 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 272 of 337 (664986)
06-06-2012 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
06-06-2012 9:53 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Do we, or do we not need the lab where the orbiting body was constructed before reliably inferring design?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 9:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 06-07-2012 10:39 AM Genomicus has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 273 of 337 (664988)
06-06-2012 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 9:24 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
They back up my methodology of detecting design.

Except that they don't actually do so, do they?

I mean, you can't quote them doing so. This agreement between you and them is something that you have inferred and that they do not in fact agree with.

Put differently, my methodology of inferring design is the same as SETI scientist et al.

You use a big radio receiver?

You've talked with me before, Dr Adequate, and I think you should know that I don't infer design simply because "it's so complex it must be designed!" Which seems to be your point with crude clay pots. Try not to confuse me with other ID proponent, mmk?

Feel free to tell me how you do go about it.

Yes, there are several methods to make clay pots AFAIK. According to jar's logic (remember, I'm critiquing his logic here), you'd have to know which method was employed for which pot before being able to infer design. Still, you might want to take on the SETI example: I freely confess that the archaeology example isn't as close to home with regards to my point.

I think jar overstates the case.

What about SETI? They are looking for artificial radio signals. I'm guessing you're not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:24 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:07 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 274 of 337 (664989)
06-06-2012 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2012 10:04 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You use a big radio receiver?

That's not what I mean by "methodology." I mean the principle is the same.

Feel free to tell me how you do go about it.

The same principle that SETI scientists use.

Feel free to tell me how you do go about it.

It's not by looking at something and ooh-ing and ah-ing and saying "oh, look how complex it is! It must be designed!" It's through the testing of various predictions of a teleological hypothesis. That, and the same principle SETI scientists use.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 10:04 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 10:12 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 275 of 337 (664990)
06-06-2012 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:07 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
The same principle that SETI scientists use.

Could you elaborate on that a little? What do you think this principle is?

For bonus points, you should explain why if you and the SETI people share this principle, the SETI people are not all IDists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:07 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:16 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 276 of 337 (664991)
06-06-2012 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2012 10:12 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Could you elaborate on that a little? What do you think this principle is?

I could outline it briefly, although I haven't been able to nail it down completely in my own mind. I am completely open to your ideas as to the principle used by SETI scientists.

The principle, as I see it, can be outlined thusly:

1. There is no known non-intelligent process that can bring about X,

2. And intelligence is a known method to generate X.

Again, I'm entirely open to revision of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 10:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 10:27 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 277 of 337 (664992)
06-06-2012 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:16 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
I could outline it briefly, although I haven't been able to nail it down completely in my own mind. I am completely open to your ideas as to the principle used by SETI scientists.

The principle, as I see it, can be outlined thusly:

1. There is no known non-intelligent process that can bring about X,

2. And intelligence is a known method to generate X.

Again, I'm entirely open to revision of this.

In which case you would first have to prove that evolution (a known non-intelligent process) could not bring about the phenomena requiring explanation.

Well, if you could do that, I suppose you would in fact have settled the debate. But people have been trying to do that for some time, with scant success.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:16 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:31 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 278 of 337 (664993)
06-06-2012 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2012 10:27 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
In which case you would first have to prove that evolution (a known non-intelligent process) could not bring about the phenomena requiring explanation.

Correct, and proving a negative is always difficult. That's why, in general, I try to steer clear of trying to prove that evolution cannot account for feature X, and instead focus on predictions made exclusively by ID hypotheses. Confirmation of these predictions would yield positive evidence in favor of the hypothesis under consideration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 10:27 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 10:38 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 283 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 11:37 PM Genomicus has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10071
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 279 of 337 (664994)
06-06-2012 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 9:05 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Hmm. Looks like these shapes of artificial objects would produce an intelligent transit.

Holy cow dude. I guess I have to leave you out on that limb by yourself.

Nothing you've quoted tell us how to detect intelligence. Notice the phrase "assuming these transits are distinguishable from a simple planetary transit".

What is the proposed method for satisfying this assumption?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:05 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:38 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10071
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 280 of 337 (664995)
06-06-2012 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:31 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
focus on predictions made exclusively by ID hypotheses.

You're onto something here. Can you list some examples of predictions which must be satisfied if ID is correct, or alternatively results which flow from the hypothesis of ID that would not be true if evolution was correct?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:31 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:39 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 281 of 337 (664996)
06-06-2012 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by NoNukes
06-06-2012 10:33 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Nothing you've quoted tell us how to detect intelligence.

Sigh. That's not the point of bringing up that paper. Jar specifically asked me to cite papers wherein we would infer design regardless of the fact that (a) we don't know how the object was designed, and (b) we don't have the lab, and (c) we don't have the designer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 10:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2012 12:53 AM Genomicus has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 282 of 337 (664997)
06-06-2012 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by NoNukes
06-06-2012 10:38 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Can you list some examples of predictions which must be satisfied if ID is correct, or alternatively results which flow from the hypothesis of ID that would not be true if evolution was correct?

ID is a broad term which includes a number of teleological hypotheses. The ID hypothesis of front-loading makes a number of predictions.

See my article here:
http://thegenomestale.wordpress.com/...ogy-and-front-loading

For the record: I discussed this prediction of the FLH on a thread on this site some months ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 10:38 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2012 1:45 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 283 of 337 (665000)
06-06-2012 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:31 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Correct, and proving a negative is always difficult. That's why, in general, I try to steer clear of trying to prove that evolution cannot account for feature X ...

... OK, so that method's a bust.

That's why, in general, I try to steer clear of trying to prove that evolution cannot account for feature X, and instead focus on predictions made exclusively by ID hypotheses.

But ... if you can't rule out evolution as an explanation for X, then X cannot be a prediction made exclusively by ID hypotheses, since it would also be compatible with evolution. Evolution would also predict that X can happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:31 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 284 of 337 (665002)
06-06-2012 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Dr Adequate
06-06-2012 11:37 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
But ... if you can't rule out evolution as an explanation for X, then X cannot be a prediction made exclusively by ID hypotheses, since it would also be compatible with evolution. Evolution would also predict that X can happen.

You're confusing a model's explanation with a model's prediction. There's a difference, ya know. Can you tell me what the difference is?

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-07-2012 12:15 AM Genomicus has responded
 Message 286 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 12:18 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 285 of 337 (665003)
06-07-2012 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 11:56 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You're confusing a model's explanation with a model's prediction. There's a difference, ya know. Can you tell me what the difference is?

I can, but giving you so extensive a lesson in the philosophy of science would hardly be germane to my argument.

If evolution can explain something happening, it also predicts that it can happen. If it can happen under an evolutionary hypothesis, then it is not unique to an ID hypothesis.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 11:56 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 12:21 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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