AntiGod education should not be compulsary (even for non wealthy)

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I think the opinion I brought up was a nation "under God". So as long as the education is reflective of, and servant to the Christian majority, then fine. When it becomes oppressive, and tyranical, not honoring God, ot His people, then it must be fought.

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Perhaps some more US history and political science would help you as well.The idea that we are a nation "Under God" was fairly recent. The founders of this nation surely did not make this a part of our government and wrote many things to the contrary. In fact, in 1797 they made a treaty with Tripoli and in that Federal document the US government stated plainly the US was not founded on Xianity, or bound to Xian principles.They very early on created an amendment to ensure religious majorities did NOT get to dictate policies over minorities.It was only in the 1950's, when the nation was swept up in anti-communist fervor, that legislators lost their heads and stuck God in everywhere to distinguish US from THEM. That includes the phrase "under God".Thankfully that may get repealed in the near future (as it is clearly unconstitutional). And for those that think this is a major blow to being a true American I would advise you to check out the 1942 US propaganda film "Joe Smith, American". In that we see children pledging the flag as it was once known... WITHOUT "under God".I guess this just goes to show how weak many of the Xian faith are. Without constant reminders to everyone just who the majority in this country are, they lose hope. Get it in the pledge, get it in the science class, get it in the Constitution (just as soon as they can).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Wow... In that movie the kids also had a different way of saluting the flag. Did you have to do that too? And how did they explain the change? Do you remember any debate about this at all?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hey, from now on tell them that if the pledge without "under God" was good enough for our Greatest Generation, it is good enough for you. What... they got something wrong with the heroes of WW2???That oughta give 'em something to think about... maybe even start a grassroots thing.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Rather than answering this post of mine, how about replying to the earlier one I posted to you with facts regarding US history and Xianity's NONexistence in it's government?

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Are you saying a certain recitation in the US wasn't made by what you call heros, and therefore God is not essential?

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No. I am saying that the heroes of the US had many different Gods and feelings about their Gods. But the one feeling they had at a time of GREAT PATRIOTISM TO THIS COUNTRY... is that their belief in God had nothing to do with their belief in this nation.Their faith in either God or Country was not so weak that they demanded both be used to prop each other up.I think many would be disappointed to see where the US is right now as well. They certainly were not for tossing out all the freedoms they fought for... including the freedom of religion.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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(hand outstreched with arm pointing toward flag) the flag...." But they quit that when Herr Hitler's version got too popular.

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Yeah, it kind of looked like that. That gave the movie I saw it in an almost surreal quality.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have always been taught that these boys thought they were fighting for God, as well as keeping their people free from evil.

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Let's pretend for a second that there really are no atheists in foxholes. A careful review of WW2 soldiers will indicate that they were not all Xian, or even monotheists.While any soldier was perfectly able to consider themselves fighting for their God or Gods, what would have been reprehensible, and is reprehensible, is to have every soldier forced to say the God they are fighting for is that of the majority. Putting specific commentary about religious beliefs in government writing/practices robs minorities of their freedom.

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Anyhow, we have expressed opinions, and get a good idea where each ones stand. Yhat pretty well covers it here I think. Any last minute add ons or points while the thread is open?

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Yeah... how about answering my first reply to you that did not express "opinions", but gave you FACTS regarding the history of religion's relationship to the US government?Unless you have something to counter concrete Federal Documents such as the 1797 treaty with Tripoli, or will at least try to address the points I made in that earlier post, I will take your silence as an admission that you are wrong.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Just to correct a point. In number 6 (the result of godless education is blah blah blah) he is actually using the Slippery Slope argument.A reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument which takes an initial position by an opponent to its logical conclusion (which would be undesirable to the opponent).In this case he is not taking anything to its logical or necessary conclusion. He is simply saying secular education destroys lives. That is one very slippery slope.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Okay, I totally think you're just jerking everyone's chains. But in case you really believe what you have just stated...

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In God we trust & one nation under God -was meant to be brought up to show that The government seems to like the impression it is on God's side.

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I have already shown using FACTS that your OPINION is incorrect. I see you do not care to address them. H=1 14g=0.

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anti Christ types who like to X out Christmas,

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The joke is on you both. X does not remove Christ, it is shorthand. But Christmas itself is a pagan holiday anyway. I realize history is a problem for you but you might want to look it up. Christmas is not even at the right time of year for Jesus' birth. The early church simply used that to take over solstice celebrations.

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you may not like some of my more controversial opinions!

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Yeah, but I wouldn't worry much about them if they are as fact-deficient as all the rest of your statements.Since you call the US mine rather than yours, can I ask where you are from and why you are so concerned about our educational system? As far as I know creo is not taught in any other educational system around the world (but I could be wrong).I'd also ask if you have such a faith in God as you say you do, why are you so afraid about what other people think? So much so that you need the government to reinforce it?[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-12-2004]

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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My point being not what year each phrase was implemented, but, as those words on the money, show, you like to say your with God.

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The year "under God" was added to the pledge was not the only FACT I gave you. There was also that little bit about the treaty of 1797 where the government (including founders of the US) state clearly that the US government is NOT based on Xianity, or Xian principles.Do you want a history of money, to let you know when "In God we Trust" was added, and for what reason?Whether your schools teach evolution or not they really need to help you with learning history.

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OK tell us the exact day Jesus was born, so we can fix it up.

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I have no idea. But I can pretty much guarantee it was not on Xmas. I guess I could go look up what latest scholars think on the subject.Either way, there is also no question that Xmas was the adoption of pagan solstice into Xian practice. You can find that fact from evangelicals if you won't trust my word. Some refuse to celebrate it because it is of pagan origin.

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The country you seem to think is yours has a very many of His children. I would very much suggest you stop offending their spirits, their faith.

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You referred to the US as my country, not me. I was wondering why.As far as being offended, if thine eyes or ears offend thee, pluck them out. But my you guys are some thin-skinned little bastards if your faith can't even handle people talking around you.

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What people's thoughts are these you think I'm afraid of?

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Evilition, Freedumb, Demoncracy... good stuff like that.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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an impression of christianity exists, and it's fortified with vitimins, and three essential minerals.

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Okay I get it. I watch CrankYankers too.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Look at his last response to me... vitamins and minerals? The guy is just getting his kicks jerking people's chains. Let him go bother someone else and forget about it.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)