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Author | Topic: Which religion's creation story should be taught? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined:
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I find that the characterisation of Jefferson in this posting is wildly at odds with what we actually know from his writings and recorded conversations.
Firstly, he was what would now be called a Deist in my own opinion. I could go along with those who say he was a reluctant theist, or a revolutionary Christian who wanted to take the nonsense (and most of the 'religion') out of Christianity and emphasise the moral/ethical lessons. He had a lifelong hatred of the organised religions - including the various sects of Christianity - and he wrote a great deal, in great depth on the subject so it isn't necessary to second-guess or 'interpret' him. This notion that he wanted religion to be free to interfere with the state but not vica-versa...I find that not just wrong but dishonest. Jefferson is on record on the subject, so the only way one could reach such a wildly inaccurate position is by willfully ignoring history and re-writing it to suit.
quote:Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802 Not much room for doubt is there? He welcomes (and reveres) the decision to erect a wall between the two. A wall works both ways and Jefferson was not stupid, so I think we assume he means what he says and doesn't require 'interpreting' by those with different opinions. If anyone can 'interpret' that as meaning he actually wanted a one-way passage, not a wall, then I believe they should seek employment as a Jesuit, in which calling they will find many like-minded people practising their sophistry and semantic gymnastics. Jefferson despised the established churches, so the notion that he wanted to leave a way for churches to involve themselves in Government is fantasy.
quote: quote:-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 quote:Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (I could go on. He wrote extensively and articulately about his dislike for all organised religion).Did you know that Jefferson also re-wrote the Gospels? He took out all the magic and superstition and left Jesus as an earthly moral philosopher, not the son of God. Damn fine idea from a clear-thinking man Americans should indeed be thankful for. Let's have no more of this tawdry re-writing of history and silly re-interpretation of that which was never opaque. The Jefferson Bible The letters, addresses and various documents penned by Jefferson are publicly available below. If anyone wishes to assert that he was 'for the church' or that he wanted church involvement in Government then I would urge them to read what he said, not what you would have liked him to say.http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/index.htm Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given. Edited by Bikerman, : To provide link to Jefferson letters and documents Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
Such terms were simply common ways of expressing quite secular meanings.
If you want to talk about the intent of the founding fathers then look no further than the writings of Jefferson himself. For instance, the original wording HE used for part of the constitutions was: quote:This was changed by the congress. Washington and Adams were quite clear about what Christianity meant to the government. Nothing. The tripoli agreement (below) was written under Washington's Presidency and signed in the Adams Presidence: As I said, Jefferson is clear that he admires Jesus as a secular moralist/philosopher, not a divinity and certainly not in the Christian mold - the son of God. He could not have been clearer.
quote: quote: quote: quote:Clear as crystal to anyone who wants to read the words.... What of Ben Franklin?
quote: quote: quote:Adams? quote: quote: quote: quote:Again it seems pretty clear to me....
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
PS - terms like 'the year of our lord' were just the common idiom. Many people today use religious references with absolutely no religious intent. Anything from swearing to giving the date as BC or AD. The fact that religion deeply permeates the English Language is hardly surprising when you consider history. The inference that using religious expressions is somehow a tacit admission of religiousity is clearly fallacious. Next time you hear someone use a religious turn of phrase - ask them whether they meant it to express some religious POV or not - I'm pretty sure that the majority will say not.
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
Fair request.
Here is the source from which I first found many of the quotes used mbdojo.com - mbdojo Resources and Information. However, being a careful soul, I then checked each quote that I used individually, using a simple google text search. Reference for all the Jefferson quotes is contained in my previous posting up the page - towards the end I give a link to the full letters/writings of Jefferson and all the above quotes can be verified there. Ben Franklin quotes : supporting links:q1. The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin/Section Twenty Eight - Wikisource, the free online library q2. I just happen to have learned that one some time ago, but it is relatively well known and a google search should pull up many citations. q3. http://www.quotiki.com/quotes/16535 (not very authoratitive, but again there are many citations available with a quick google). Adams quotes supporting linksq1. John Adams - Wikiquote q2. Miracle - Wikipedia q3. http://www.foundersquotes.com/...ral-authority-of-the-people q4. John Adams quotes Now, I know that these sources are not academically admissable for the most part, and I wouldn't use them in a written thesis, but I think they are all easy enough to track down if required, and I think I did enough due dilligence for a forum debate :-) Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
quote:What belief? Those are the words used by Jefferson - you don't have to believe the evident, you simply have to accept it. I don't 'believe' in evolution, for example, it is evident, therefore I accept it. Likewise I don't 'believe' that the constitution was both designed to, and does, establish exactly a WALL of separation between Church and State, since no belief is required - it is evident. As for Madison's intent : I refer you to the following which should clear up any perceived ambiguity:
quote: and
quote: I don't see how any ambiguity could now remain in the mind of any honest person. This is explicit, completely clear and entirely unambiguous. Sources:Reach And Teach | Books, Toys, Fair Trade Gifts, and Green Lifestyle Products for A More Peaceful World http://www.constitution.org/jm/18191213_monopolies.htm Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4946 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
quote:No, it cited more than two dozen violations of natural justice, not a single one of which mentions, alludes to or references the bible in any way, and all of which are completely secular in nature, being mostly concerned with legislation, taxation and supporting hostile powers/peoples. None of those are religious 'violations' - Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s Last time I checked legislation and taxation were definitely in the 'Caeser' category.
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