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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 302 of 331 (606914)
02-28-2011 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by JRTjr
02-28-2011 10:45 PM


Re: comparative religion class?
In a comparative religion class it would be up to the teachers/school board with religions would be represented in there creation myths.

That would be up to the anthropologist teaching the class, not some school board.

Religious practitioners and other shamans have no business trying to teach such a class. They are not qualified.

Comparative religion can only be taught by someone who has some degree of separation from a particular religion. This is to avoid the preaching you would get otherwise.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by JRTjr, posted 02-28-2011 10:45 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 303 of 331 (606915)
02-28-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by JRTjr
02-28-2011 11:27 PM


o rly? ya rly.
Rrhain writes:

you don't seem to understand what DNA is. It does not "insure that the child will be of the same species as the parents." In fact, given all our observations of DNA, it never remains stable but rather always mutates from generation to generation, guaranteeing the creation of new species. That's why we have seen speciation happen right in front of our eyes both in the lab and in the wild.

JRTjr writes:

Really, so you can demonstrate this hu?

yes.

Some one has actually seen a cow deliver a bat, or a cat bear a dog, or something like that? As far as I know, cats have always delivered cats; cows have always borne cows, etc, etc, etc.

no. in fact, this would be as good a falsification of evolution as anything else a creationist could possible dream up. mutations are slight and incremental, not suddenly reproducing another distantly related species that already exists.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by JRTjr, posted 02-28-2011 11:27 PM JRTjr has responded

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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 304 of 331 (606916)
02-28-2011 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
11-03-2010 10:32 AM


No Evidence provided????
Dear Jar,

Jar writes:

You have not provided any evidence to support any other hypothesis; there is no Creation model to teach.

Of course not, because any evidence I give is ignored, and then you claim its been refuted, even though you havent.

Classic Evolutionists tactic.

JRTjr

Edited by JRTjr, : Corrected quotation.


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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 305 of 331 (606922)
03-01-2011 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by bluescat48
11-07-2010 5:09 PM


Atheism a religion!?!?!?
Dear bluescat48,

For the sake of getting back to the topic at hand; I promise to refrain from calling Atheism a religion.

JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 306 of 331 (606923)
03-01-2011 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Coyote
02-28-2011 9:02 PM


Re: 'Establishment' Forbidden??
Dear Coyote,

I was unaware of this ruling.

So after 230 years of using the Bible exclusively they decided they should use other religious texts.

Did you notice the last paragraph?

Before that time, the law was called "Administration of oath upon the Gospels" and stated that someone to be sworn was to lay a hand on "the Holy Evangelists of Almighty God." Legislators took out "the Gospels" in the title and changed the language to simply read "Holy Scriptures" in 1985.

Hope to hear from you again soon,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2011 9:02 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 307 of 331 (606924)
03-01-2011 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by RAZD
02-28-2011 9:07 PM


Respecting/Prohibiting v favor/disfavor
Dear Razd,

Razd writes:

Simply stated the congress cannot pass any laws that favor or disfavor any of all the world's religions.

The words respecting and prohibiting do not mean favor or disfavor.

Hope to hear from you again,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 9:07 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 8:43 AM JRTjr has responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 308 of 331 (606925)
03-01-2011 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Theodoric
02-28-2011 9:08 PM


Re: 'Establishment' Forbidden????
Dear Theodoric,

Ya, Ive quoted the First Amendment (repeatedly). I know it by heart.

The first Amendment says nothing about forbidding an establishment of anything.

It is, however, a clear declaration that the Government is not to restrict religious expression. I.e. if we have a cross on our states seal the Federal Government can not force us to take it off.

So, I repeat my question

Where, in the Constitution of the United States of Americas, is establishment Forbidden?

Hope to hear from you soon,
JRTjr


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 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2011 9:08 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 309 of 331 (606928)
03-01-2011 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by arachnophilia
02-28-2011 11:36 PM


Show Me!
Dear Arachnophilia,

Arachnophilia writes:

yes.

Well dont leave us in suspense, demonstrate away.

Arachnophilia writes:

no. in fact, this would be as good a falsification of evolution as anything else a creationist could possible dream up. mutations are slight and incremental, not suddenly reproducing another distantly related species that already exists.

Youre absolutely correct. In fact the point I bring out with this is that Dogs have always produced dogs, cat cats, and so on and so forth. The idea that man came from great apes, from lesser apes from some other life forms all the way back to sea creatures, and then to single celled life forms that somehow just popped on the seen is unproven.

Give me some evidence that your great, great, X x great ancestor was anything other that a human and I will consider it.

Or prove some direct link between fish and amphibians, or amphibians and land animals. Draw me a genealogy showing actual species from one major group to another.

Hope to hear from you soon,
JRTjr


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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 310 of 331 (606932)
03-01-2011 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by JRTjr
03-01-2011 3:42 AM


Re: Show Me!
JRTjr writes:

Youre absolutely correct. In fact the point I bring out with this is that Dogs have always produced dogs, cat cats, and so on and so forth.


Yes, exactly as evolution predicts. The offspring of something will never be radically different from its parents.

The idea that man came from great apes, from lesser apes from some other life forms all the way back to sea creatures, and then to single celled life forms that somehow just popped on the seen is unproven.

No it isn't. You see, humans are still apes, are still mamals, are still vertebrates, and so on and so forth.

Give me some evidence that your great, great, X x great ancestor was anything other that a human and I will consider it.

No you won't, since this evidence has alteady been provided to you.

Or prove some direct link between fish and amphibians, or amphibians and land animals. Draw me a genealogy showing actual species from one major group to another.

This is the internet. I'm sure you can find the various phylogenetic trees out there.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 2388 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 311 of 331 (606934)
03-01-2011 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Coyote
02-28-2011 11:30 PM


Re: comparative religion class?
quote:
Religious practitioners and other shamans have no business trying to teach such a class. They are not qualified.

Says who? There are many teachers in the system that are religious. Are they qualified to teach? Should someone who accepts evolution be allowd to teach science class? Absolutely. This is because no matter what the beliefs of the teacher, if the course material is properly conveyed, then the course becomes successful. Telling us that someone with no religious background could only teach these courses would be like saying someone with no science education should teach science. It's illogical.

Anyone can read a science textbook, and anyone can read a religious text. But for any connection to be made, or understanding, the teacher needs to be fluent in the material.

I'm not saying lets bring in pastors and force everyones kids to memorize John 3:16. I'm saying just as it's important for a science teacher to understand science, it is equally important for a religious teacher to understand the religion. How does someone understand the religion, without accepting it as true?

Thanks,
Dennis


This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 312 of 331 (606935)
03-01-2011 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by dennis780
03-01-2011 4:53 AM


Re: comparative religion class?
dennis780 writes:

How does someone understand the religion, without accepting it as true?


Since this is about a comparative religion class, I can't see how such a person exists. I mean, he would litterally have to accept every religion that comes up as true. How would that work? Or do you propse that members of each respective religion should teach about it in the class? It would get quite crowded in there.
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 313 of 331 (606943)
03-01-2011 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by JRTjr
03-01-2011 2:48 AM


reality vs fantasy
Hi JRTjr

The words respecting and prohibiting do not mean favor or disfavor.

That's all you got? Equivocation on the meaning of words? Sadly, for you, this does not mean that you can establish a state religion in any way.

I repeat what I said in Message 292:

Message 290: Where, in the Constitution of the United States of Americas, is establishment Forbidden?

It's easy to actually read the documents involved you know.

http://www.archives.gov/...rs/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


This is of course written in the english of the times.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respecting

quote:
respecting
preposition
regarding; concerning.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/respecting

quote:
Main Entry: respecting
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: regarding
Synonyms: about, as to, concerning, in connection with, in respect to, referring to, relating to, with reference to, with regard to

Ergo the first phrase of the first Amendment to the constitution can be rendered as meaning:

Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, ...
or
Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion, ...
or
Congress shall make no law in connection with an establishment of religion, ...
or
Congress shall make no law referring to an establishment of religion, ...
or
Congress shall make no law relating to an establishment of religion, ...
or
Congress shall make no law with reference to an establishment of religion, ...

That answers your question, whether you like the answer or not is irrelevant.

Just because you would like the American history to be richly guided by Christian beliefs, it just is not so. Even the Christianity that was practiced by some people (in addition to many other religions) is not like the modern Christianity and pretending otherwise will not make it so.

Americans at the time the Constitution was written were very well aware of the evils that come from the establishment of state religions, with the persecutions and murders of others, and most particularly when the oppressed moved to the colonies and then became the oppressors.

For these reasons they allowed for the free practice of ANY religion or related belief but specifically ruled out the possibility of the establishment of a state religion.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : clrty

Edited by RAZD, : mrclrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by JRTjr, posted 03-01-2011 2:48 AM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29756
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 314 of 331 (606950)
03-01-2011 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by JRTjr
02-28-2011 10:26 PM


Re: No Creation story/myth / several Creation stories/myths?
JRTjr writes:

Dear Jar,

Great to hear from you again.

Jar writes:

If you read carefully you will see that I do not "say two mutually exclusive things."
I say that there is no Christian Creation story. Note, that is singular. That is also a fact. Christianity, Islam and Judaism have several creation myths, the newer myth found in Genesis 1 and the much earlier primitive story found in Genesis 2&3. Two Creation myths. And they are mutually exclusive, if one is true then the other is false. Of course we know that neither one is factually correct, and both are refuted by the evidence of the universe itself.

Jar, please, listen to your self; first you say there is no Christian Creation story. Note, that is singular. That is also a fact.

So, according to you, there is no Christian Creation story

Then you say Christianity, Islam and Judaism have several creation myths (Stories)

So which is it: No Creation story/myth or several Creation stories/myths?

Lastly, can you give me an example where Geneses Chapter 1 directly contradicts Chapters 2 or 3?

Great fun sparring with you,
JRTjr

Learn to read. There is no single Christian/Muslim/Jewish Creation story (although the Qur'an does a much better job of smoothing out the inconsistencies and contradictions); there are at least two mutually exclusive creation myths.

As to the contradictions between the newer fable found in Genesis 1 and the earlier fable found in Genesis 2&3, they differ in the order of creation, the method of creation and the very gods themselves.

As the Rt. Rev. Bennett J. Sims, Episcopal Bishop of Atlanta in a Pastoral Statement on Creation and Evolution said:

quote:
In Genesis there is not one creation statement but two. They agree as to why and who, but are quite different as to how and when. The statements are set forth in tandem, chapter one of Genesis using one description of method and chapter two another. According to the first, humanity was created, male and female, after the creation of plants and animals. According to the second, man was created first, then the trees, the animals and finally the woman and not from the earth as in the first account, but from the rib of the man.

While both of the fable attribute creation to God, the descriptions of the two Gods are also mutually exclusive. The God found in Genesis one is competent, creates simply by an act of will, never hesitates, is never unsure, but is also separate, not interacting with the creations, aloof and apart. The much older God found in Genesis 2&3 though is entirely different, a hands on tinkerer, learning on the job, unsure, afraid but also intimate, personable, interacting directly and continuously with the creation.

If the Christian Creation fables are taught it should be pointed out that they are simply myths, that they are mutually exclusive and that they were never meant as science and were both included in the bible because they were not factual but rather poetic and metaphorical.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by JRTjr, posted 02-28-2011 10:26 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 315 of 331 (606951)
03-01-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by JRTjr
03-01-2011 3:04 AM


Re: 'Establishment' Forbidden????
Wow.

Is it that you can't read or is there a comprehension issue?

You live in reverse world?

So to you

quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

means the gov't cannot make any law preventing the establishment of religion?

Can you show any legal or constitutional scholars that agree with this?
Can you show that any founding fathers meant this bizarre interpretation?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 316 of 331 (606958)
03-01-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by dennis780
03-01-2011 4:53 AM


Re: comparative religion class?
I'm saying just as it's important for a science teacher to understand science, it is equally important for a religious teacher to understand the religion. How does someone understand the religion, without accepting it as true?

Comparative religion is best taught by someone who is a dispassionate observer, not someone who favors one religion over another.

And it is best taught by someone with a background in Anthropology, rather than a background in one particular religion.

Otherwise you are liable to end up with inherent biases.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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