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Author Topic:   Kansas State School Board At It Once Again
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 136 (208974)
05-17-2005 7:51 AM


True Colours revealed
Well it appears that the Kansas board has revealed its true intent, which is not to consider the merits of ID vs Evo as scientific enterprises, but to change scientific methodology such that ID can count as a scientific enterprise in the first place.
From Yahoo article on the Kansas board meetings...
The Kansas school board's hearings on evolution weren't limited to how the theory should be taught in public schools. The board is considering redefining science itself. Advocates of "intelligent design" are pushing the board to reject a definition limiting science to natural explanations for what's observed in the world.
Instead, they want to define it as "a systematic method of continuing investigation," without specifying what kind of answer is being sought. The definition would appear in the introduction to the state's science standards.
This should be seen as IDists tossing a towel into the ring in this debate, but I'm pretty sure it will be viewed as some sort of advance forward for science. Back to the future and all that.
So long science, it was good while it lasted. On the bright side I'll be able to revive the family trade of Witchsmeller Pursuyvent.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Mammuthus, posted 05-17-2005 8:33 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 92 of 136 (209000)
05-17-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Mammuthus
05-17-2005 8:33 AM


Re: True Colours revealed
If the trend spreads from Kansas, the US will have to become an even greater importer of foreign educated scientists because the homegrown science students will be to poorly educated to be able to compete. The trend already exists and will continue to accelerate.
Perhaps this is what is meant by "faith-based" education. We will have faith that the rest of the world will supply scientists to do our work for us.
Hey, its really gonna suck for you when the world no longer believes in mammoths and so pull your grants. After all what's so special about studying the Snuffleupagus? We already know all about him from Sesame Street.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Mammuthus, posted 05-17-2005 8:33 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Mammuthus, posted 05-17-2005 10:36 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 94 of 136 (209300)
05-18-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Mammuthus
05-17-2005 10:36 AM


Re: True Colours revealed
ID = Intelligent Drinker
OK - Cute side comment, but let's not let it sidetrack the topic. - Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-18-2005 12:55 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Mammuthus, posted 05-17-2005 10:36 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 99 of 136 (209921)
05-20-2005 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Mammuthus
05-20-2005 4:06 AM


Re: True Colours revealed indeed
Something in the US system seems to work against teenagers maintaining an interest in science.
I believe it is the culture at large and not something specific to the educational system. The US is anti-education and specifically anti-intellectual. Despite lip service toward education, you can hear the sizzle of venom and acid dripping from lips of Republican leaders and many other conservatives when they discuss universities and science in particular.
After graduation in America's heartland... and into a full recession I was forced to try and find work in the retail sector. While there I was fully chastised, and I guess I should say harassed and discriminated against for being educated and having an interest in science.
One woman specifically looked at me with pure disgust and then yelled to everyone else where we worked "He's a scientist! Hey everyone we have a scientist!" It was so filled with hate and bile I thought I was going to be lynched afterward. And let me explain, this was not because I said something controversial about evo vs creo or something. I just mentioned something about chemistry or physics.
At another place I was rejected for employment as the interviewer laughed in my face saying they (everyone who worked there) didn't understand why anyone would ever want to go and get a college education.
Even once I moved to the city, there was an intellectual and science negative atmosphere. When I loaned some books to my gf on evolutionary theory and she was reading them at work, coworkers came up and hassled her for believing such things.
Coming to Europe I have never seen anything like that (until recently), and most people having some respect if not interest in the sciences.
I think it was a mistake. They should have come in with dozens of scientists from different disciplines explaining what science is, why the ToE is science and is supported, why ID is ridiculous and show that the scientific community takes science seriously at every level. What they did was make it look like they did not want to show up to a race they think they can't win.
I cannot say it was a mistake. This was really a lose/lose situation. By not going in they might look as if scientists have something to hide (which is of course what one of the board members said). But by attending the board review they might have done something a lot more damaging.
Remember that ID is making great hay out of anything they can do which brings scientists out. They say "See this must be important because scientists came and had to debate". What's worse this was a fixed race. By testifying and presenting all sorts of great evidence, the board could then go ahead and do what they wanted to do anyway and declare that the evidence was presented and ID was proven correct, setting a political/legal precedent for them to quote endlessly.
It may be better off having them have to refer to the fact that scientists refused to show up, than that they did show up and were "proven wrong before a panel of intelligent and educated educators chosen by the entire state of Kansas and so surely objective and forthright in their decision and proving that democracatically elected government agencies recognize the necessity of this debate and the position of ID in that debate."
After that it will be asking why other states are being held back, because obviously if the debate was held fairly ID would win its case in every state.
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour. This might be one, even if discretion is often mistaken as cowardice. Challenging them to a fair fight will reveal where the cowardice lies.
And actually I like how this move has helped force them into the open on their true agenda. They might have avoided discussing the real element in this (ending the scientific method) by discussing all the "weak points" of evolution. Certainly that would be buried in the broader debate.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Mammuthus, posted 05-20-2005 4:06 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by paisano, posted 05-20-2005 7:57 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 108 by EZscience, posted 05-20-2005 9:09 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 104 of 136 (209957)
05-20-2005 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by paisano
05-20-2005 7:57 AM


Re: True Colours revealed indeed
If the Kansas state board forces the teaching of ID, I would love to see every biology teacher in the state resign en masse.
That would be awesome.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by paisano, posted 05-20-2005 7:57 AM paisano has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 118 of 136 (210509)
05-23-2005 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
05-22-2005 10:02 PM


No one questions evolution within a species by natural selection. The question is in regard to the evolution of a new species from a preceding one. What is the impetus for this transformation?
There is absolutely no question that the impetus of transformation for one species cross into a new species is the result of an intelligent agent: Human beings.
Look at what you just said above, there is no question that natural selection (which is not random by the way, its the mutations that are random) occurs to every living organism during reproduction, slowly changing the physical shape and genetic makeup of those organisms.
At some point human beings declare that the accumulated changes are so much that we will consider the descendent a different species. In some cases branches of descendants will accumulate different changes based on having moved into different environments and so result in us saying that there were two descendant species.
Unless there is some evidence that small changes cannot accumulate to such a degree that humans will not categorize a descendent as a new species, there is no need to pretend there is a divide between micro and macro evolution. They are the same thing.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 05-22-2005 10:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 119 of 136 (210511)
05-23-2005 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by paisano
05-21-2005 10:35 AM


loop de loop
What's the latest from the Kansas board anyway ?
As a reminder, though EZ had news on the Kansas Board from the 9th, I had previously updated the topic back on the 17th.
The latest news is that the Kansas board has openly declared that the subject is not just evo vs id, but that they wish to change the definition of science itself. The result being that current standards and methods of science will be flushed right down the toilet so that any theory and manner of exploring that theory will be allowed as science.
As I pointed out in my previous post (called True Colours Revealed), this should be considered tantamount to a towel being thrown in the ring on this debate as it pretty well admits that the methodology of modern science must be changed so that ID can be considered science.
The debate of changing science itself is totally different from assessing whether ID actually fits as a science and more than that acts as a good competetive theory to evo within science.
This is a very scary move... or a great opportunity, depending on how you look at it. I can write pretty good pseudo-scientific BS if I really want to, and so a lucrative career can be had, as of course the people can be had even more easily.
This message has been edited by holmes, 05-23-2005 04:59 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by paisano, posted 05-21-2005 10:35 AM paisano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by EZscience, posted 05-23-2005 7:01 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 123 of 136 (210794)
05-24-2005 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by EZscience
05-23-2005 7:01 AM


Re: Don't give up on us yet...
I don't think it will 'operationally' affect the teaching of science in Kansas that much.
But changing the teaching in Kansas at this point in time is not their goal. Reading Dembski and Johnson, one can see that the goal is much broader and far reaching.
They wish to change the cultural understanding of what science is and so what its mechanisms and methodologies are such that lawyers and theologians and metaphysicians can compete on even ground with physical scientists regarding natural phenomena.
If the Kansas board does institute that definition, it will be a feather in the ID crowd's cap as they will now have proven that science's definition can be changed, has been changed, and so should be changed by government entities. That is to say it is no longer a pursuit by scientists, but is beholden to the people via politicians who can determine exactly what it is.
The US secretary of education under Bush was recently trying to creep in the same sort of nonsense. All they need to do is have the gov't drive science and anything is possible, especially to a very gullible society. 50 years from now if common knowledge is science is the attempt to create "theories" about nature, how it will be taught will look quite different.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by EZscience, posted 05-23-2005 7:01 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Mammuthus, posted 05-25-2005 4:51 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 125 of 136 (211073)
05-25-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Mammuthus
05-25-2005 4:51 AM


Re: Don't give up on us yet...
I am a bit more pessimistic.
No. let me assure you I am just as pessimistic.
I agree that the ignorance problem is large (near universal) and that the IDists are simply trying to claim that these mistaken notions are factual.
I was describing it as "changing" cultural understandings, because the common misconceptions are still not manifest in legal/political systems, nor in every day cultural phenomona. A good example is movies. These types are offended by cartoon movies with dinosaurs living in some ancient past getting made. There will have to be a change in culture before things like that stop getting made.
This also includes education, where they want debates (and teaching) in science to be made by anyone at all, regardless of experience in the field. That will still take a bit as people are still unlikely to accept the chemistry professor being a lawyer.
All it will do is create an even larger gap between the fewer and fewer people who understand and can apply scientific discoveries and those who just blindly pop pills and hope that it relieves their pain and does not kill them...it will be a great time to go into the snake oil sales business.
Agreed. Like I said earlier, I'll be a witchsmeller pursuyevent. Easy money.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Mammuthus, posted 05-25-2005 4:51 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Mammuthus, posted 05-25-2005 8:43 AM Silent H has not replied

  
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