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Author Topic:   Does Evolution Require Spreading The Word?
Teets_Creationist
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 135 (318992)
06-08-2006 7:01 AM


I was homeschooled, so my textbooks were much different than probably most of yours. There was no evolutionary teaching in them at all, and I did graduate with a High School Diploma, not a GED. So I can honestly say, that you don't need to learn evolution to graduate here in America.

I am now 25, been out of school for a while, and it wasn't until I was on my own at 19 that I really started hearing more and more about evolution. Basically, people were saying that I was a brainwashed kid, held back from society, and that the religion in my home kept me from learning truth. Some of you probably would concur :D.

I also learned mathematics when I was homeschooled. Mathematics was required for me to learn to graduate. When I was on my own around age 19, I knew math better than most of my co-workers at all my various jobs. Nobody said to me "You were homeschooled, so you don't know crap about math". They didn't say, "Your religion must have been brainwashing you as far as math goes, 'cause that isn't right!" when I could add 16.55 plus 3.45 in my head (without using fingers and toes!),
(it's 20 by the way, and yes, much sarcasm involved in that sentence)

Anyway, my point is, this forum, and many other evolutionist minded folk throughout my life, have always been adamant about pleading their case. Many say it's fact, and has been proven. They are always persistent in letting you know what they believe. My question is, is it really necessary to promote it so much, if it's that written in stone. I mean, you already have it infiltrating the school system, why do you even need to debate about it, it's fact, isn't it? Is there some sort of "Go and tell" command that evolutionists must abide by, to make sure that their propaganda gets spread? Sort of reminiscent of the Christian's command to go and spread the Gospel.

I would like to see a debate arise about wether 10+10=20. That won't happen, know why? Because nobody needs to be told it. Everyone already knows it. You wouldn't see a mathematician going haywire on a forum, because someone said 10+10=30. He would dismiss them. Know why? Because there's no threat to his belief that 10+10=20, because that's set in stone.

Is it necessary to promote evolution? Why is it so critical people believe it? What happens to us if we don't believe it? Would evolution go extinct without promotion? If I die without ever believing evolution, how much worse off am I than if you die believing it? Would 10+10=30 if mathematics weren't promoted in school?

Anyone who believes evolution as fact, should never waste time answering these questions, because promotion of a fact is a waste of time. (Such as if I were to spend my life promoting 10+10=20). But, just so everyone knows where I stand, I will answer the quetions, and let you refute me :D.

Is it necessary to promote evolution? - Just as the Christian's are commanded to "Go and tell", evolutionists must keep their religion alive, by persuading people to see their point of view. That is why this forum will never die. (Until the Lord comes back, that is!)

Why is it so critical people believe it? - When someone is wrong, or doing something wrong, and they know it, it seems to be human nature to find others to take down with you. The more people you fool, the more you fool yourself. If evolution were fact, there would be as many debates on it as there is on 10+10 doesn't equal 20. (I hope there are no debates like that!)

What happens to us if we don't believe it? - Even you evolutionists may agree here! Absolutely NOTHING! We can get throught life just fine not believing it! And vice versa.

Would evolution go extinct without promotion? - Absolutely. Nobody believed evolution before it existed, and it would die out if it were taken out of schools and science.

If I die without ever believing evolution, how much worse off am I than if you die believing it? - Well, without God, our bodies just recycle into the ground, and we become part of the earth. Nothing happening after we die. Unless there's some new evolutionary thinking of what happens after we die that I didn't hear about. So the reason for such promotion of evolution can't be to save me from something terrible.

Would 10+10=30 if mathematics weren't promoted in school? - What a ridiculous notion! 10 and 10 is always going to be 20, and no matter what, a mathematical answer would never need promotion, to be a fact of life. FACT: 10+10=20...does that make it an...absolute?

Is It Science?


Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 135 (319008)
06-08-2006 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
06-08-2006 7:01 AM


Short Hold
You just had one topic promoted and I'd prefer we see how that thread takes off before promoting this one.

Also you have requested that this be placed in the "Is It Science?" forum. Since it is a science forum, you need to provide some evidence. (How is evolution being promoted?, Are there no debates concerning math theorums?, give evidence that evolution would go extict if not taught, what causes people to talk to you about evolution?, etc.)

I suggest leaving out the sarcasm, negativity and assuming what participants here would agree with.

quote:
Anyway, my point is, this forum, and many other evolutionist minded folk throughout my life, have always been adamant about pleading their case.
This board is Evolution vs Creation, so of course the evolutionist here are going to plead their case.

Reply to this message if and when you have revised your opening argument so I can review it again.

Otherwise I will keep an eye on your other topic and see how it progresses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-08-2006 7:01 AM Teets_Creationist has not yet responded

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 135 (319011)
06-08-2006 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
06-08-2006 7:01 AM


I'm not sure Is It Science? is the most appropriate forum. To some extent this sounds more like an Education and Creation/Evolution topic. Let me know if you feel particularly strongly about it or if I can promote it to Education and Creation/Evolution.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by AdminWounded, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminWounded, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-08-2006 7:01 AM Teets_Creationist has not yet responded

  
Teets_Creationist
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 135 (319108)
06-08-2006 1:38 PM


Hi! Yeah, it's me again. You can take it or leave it as you see fit, but I was hoping some people who may not know me, may see more why I believe what I do, and hoping that I could see why they believe what they do. I was hoping that you could see that I wasn't trying to bring evidece to the table, because I don't know the evolutionist thinking around some of the points I brought up. And all my answers are based on what I believe just observing the people around me.

As far as the sarcasm, I wasn't aiming it at anyone. I was hoping it would keep the debate a bit more light hearted. I don't think that sarcasm is always negative, so to speak.

As far as your quote from me, I was trying to point out the reason for the existence of this website. All I'm saying, is that without evolutoinists wanting to promote their case, this website wouldn't even exist. So if it's so set in stone, as some believe, why even bother? That's the jist of it. As I said, I am a nag, and use as much "common sense" as I can, so that I don't have to waste all my time digging up evidence for what I believe. You can take it or leave it, put it in whatever category you want. But I will admit, that this is purely opinion, in the hopes of maybe others bringing their case to the table. If you have a problem with strictly opinion and sarcasm, then, there's a lot of that on this forum that needs attention.


  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 135 (319133)
06-08-2006 2:13 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

As you can see, I have promoted your topic. While I have some reservations about this topic, you do raise questions that deserve a response, and issues that warrant discussion.

Edited by AdminNWR, : Add comments.


To comment on moderation procedures or respond to admin messages:
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    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 263 days)
    Posts: 9068
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 6 of 135 (319141)
    06-08-2006 2:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:01 AM


    I would like to see a debate arise about wether 10+10=20. That won't happen, know why? Because nobody needs to be told it. Everyone already knows it. You wouldn't see a mathematician going haywire on a forum, because someone said 10+10=30. He would dismiss them. Know why? Because there's no threat to his belief that 10+10=20, because that's set in stone.

    we tried dismissing creationism. but it doesn't work. they have more and more converts every year.

    there is no debate about whether or not evolution happens, and how it explains the diversity of life on this planet, in the scientific community. biologists just as easily dismiss these kind of claims.

    Is it necessary to promote evolution?

    only because creationists are trying to get their distortions into schools, and taught as science.

    Why is it so critical people believe it? - When someone is wrong, or doing something wrong, and they know it, it seems to be human nature to find others to take down with you. The more people you fool, the more you fool yourself. If evolution were fact, there would be as many debates on it as there is on 10+10 doesn't equal 20. (I hope there are no debates like that!)

    imagine a group came out that insisted that arithmetic was just faith, and 10+10=30. they tried to get this idea into schools by promoting that we "teach the controversy" etc.

    why would it be neccessary to debate these fools?


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-08-2006 7:01 AM Teets_Creationist has not yet responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5533
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 7 of 135 (319172)
    06-08-2006 3:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:01 AM


    This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually see a lot more effort spent is spreading the word on mathematics than on spreading the word on evolution. Perhaps it is because I am a mathematician that I am aware of this effort.

    What you see as spreading the word on evolution isn't that at all. What you are seeing are defensive measures. Evolution is under attack by creationists, and most of the attack is quite dishonest. Evolutionists are, of course, defending their science against the attack and against the dishonest characterization of evolution by creationists.

    If all that were happening was that some students were avoiding the classes that teach evolution, and some parents were home-schooling their children (as a way of avoiding these classes), then you would not be seeing the activity that you consider "spreading the word". However, what we actually see are creationists trying to control the curriculum and attempting to insert religion into the science class.

    Most scientists, and not just biologists, are offended by high handed and dishonest attempts of creationists to dictate that their thoroughly unscientific views be taught in the science class.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-08-2006 7:01 AM Teets_Creationist has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-08-2006 4:07 PM nwr has responded

      
    rgb
    Inactive Member


    Message 8 of 135 (319185)
    06-08-2006 4:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:01 AM


    Teets writes
    quote:
    Is it necessary to promote evolution?

    You admitted that you never learned anything about the theory of evolution, yet I picked up doubt everywhere in your posts and your tone. This is like me doubting the germ theory of disease, a theory I know very little of.

    But to answer your question, noone is trying to promote evolution. It is taught alongside with theory of gravity, kepler's laws, genetics, cellular mitosis and meiosis, etc. If you considering teaching something is promoting it, then yes we are promoting it.

    Before you go on, ask yourself this question. What do you know about evolution? Do you think you know as much about it as the people that have spent a lifetime studying it? I am not asking you to accept it on blind faith. What I am asking you to do is consider it as a possibility, nothing more.

    quote:
    Many say it's fact, and has been proven.

    See? This statement alone tells me you know next to nothing about the theory and concept of evolution and how it is approached by science minded people.

    quote:
    I mean, you already have it infiltrating the school system...

    Would you consider the teaching of gravitational theory an infiltration of physics into our school system?

    quote:
    I would like to see a debate arise about wether 10+10=20.

    You'd be amazed how many debates out there revolve around basic arithmetics.

    quote:
    You wouldn't see a mathematician going haywire on a forum, because someone said 10+10=30.

    No, but some may go haywire on more abstract mathematical concepts, just like I might go haywire on misconceptions in physics.

    quote:
    Because there's no threat to his belief that 10+10=20, because that's set in stone.

    Not if he has to go up in front of a court to testify why 10+10=20 is fact to prevent the 10+10=30 people from teaching their "alternative" math.

    quote:
    Why is it so critical people believe it?

    It's not, just like it's not critical at all that you believe in entanglement or not. But we live in an age where everyone has an opinion on everything, and many people seem to think science is a democracy. It's not. Take you, for example. You admitted not to learn anything about the theory of evolution, yet you've dismissed it off hand just like that.

    quote:
    What happens to us if we don't believe it?

    Nothing, really. Just stop using anti-biotics if you choose not to believe in evolution.

    quote:
    If I die without ever believing evolution, how much worse off am I than if you die believing it? - Well, without God, our bodies just recycle into the ground, and we become part of the earth. Nothing happening after we die. Unless there's some new evolutionary thinking of what happens after we die that I didn't hear about. So the reason for such promotion of evolution can't be to save me from something terrible.

    So, in other words, it's wistful thinking that gave you doubt, yes?

    quote:
    Would 10+10=30 if mathematics weren't promoted in school?

    Sure, it would. My 3 year old nephew wouldn't know the difference.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-08-2006 7:01 AM Teets_Creationist has not yet responded

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 263 days)
    Posts: 9068
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 9 of 135 (319188)
    06-08-2006 4:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
    06-08-2006 3:45 PM


    This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually see a lot more effort spent is spreading the word on mathematics than on spreading the word on evolution. Perhaps it is because I am a mathematician that I am aware of this effort.

    what field of math are you in, nwr? my father is a graph theorist, and i grew up in the math department of the local university. i attend an international conference on graph theory, combinatorics, and computing every year at the university... (i'd find it really funny if i actually knew you outside of evc...)

    Most scientists, and not just biologists, are offended by high handed and dishonest attempts of creationists to dictate that their thoroughly unscientific views be taught in the science class.

    my father was particularly offended by a recent bill that was passed that said that professor were not allowed to ridicule the beliefs of their students, even by means of a line of questions.

    that's right, here in florida, they outlawed the socratic method. there goes the foundation of all knowledge. and people wonder why we're on the defensive...

    Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by nwr, posted 06-08-2006 3:45 PM nwr has responded

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    Codegate
    Member (Idle past 177 days)
    Posts: 84
    From: The Great White North
    Joined: 03-15-2006


    Message 10 of 135 (319201)
    06-08-2006 4:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:01 AM


    Evolution in no way requires promotion in order to continue to exist.

    In fact, if you were to wipe all knowledge of evolution off the face of the earth but leave us with all other knowledge of the other sciences I can guarentee that within a short period of time the theory of evolution would exist again exactly as it does today.

    Evolution is not based on any 'faith' or 'brainwashing'. It just is. If you look at the evidence that exists in the world around us, it is the only scientific solution that fits it. There really are only two solutions to the whole evolution question.

    Either A) The theory of evolution is correct to a very high degree of accuracy (there are no doubt a couple of niggly points that will be updated as new evidence arises).

    Or B) The world was created with the intent that we believe that evolution occurred, because it is what the evidences tell us happens.

    You use the 10 + 10 = 20 vs. 30 argument which is actually a great way of demonstrating that the theory of evolution is in fact correct. If you were to remove all knowledge of arithmatic from the world, we would quickly relearn that 1+1=2 and so on.

    The exact same thing would occur with ToE. Failure to see this probably means that you don't have a very complete knowledge base concerning the dozens of disiplines that all point towards a ToE.

    There are many topics here at EvC that go into the details of some of these evidenciary disiplines (is that even valid English?). They are definately worth a read.

    As for why you see people promoting the ToE so much recently in the US is that it is being forced to defend itself from the ignorant public. Due to misinformation and lies a big chunk of the people in the US believe that there are other, just as valid, theories concerning the history of life on this planet.

    This is just not true and there is a real battle trying to stave off ignorance.


    This message is a reply to:
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    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 263 days)
    Posts: 9068
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 11 of 135 (319206)
    06-08-2006 4:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Codegate
    06-08-2006 4:36 PM


    You use the 10 + 10 = 20 vs. 30 argument which is actually a great way of demonstrating that the theory of evolution is in fact correct. If you were to remove all knowledge of arithmatic from the world, we would quickly relearn that 1+1=2 and so on.

    ironically, mathematics is the only true faith. if you remove the fundamental principles of arithmetic, everything else falls too. we could deduce arithmetic -- but there'd be nothing left to deduce it from.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
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    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 15913
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.1


    Message 12 of 135 (319213)
    06-08-2006 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:01 AM


    Hi, Teets! Looks like everyone wants to put in their two cents, and I'm no different. We'll stand in line for a chance to take a swing at one of these powder-puffs.

    Teets_Creationist writes:

    Anyway, my point is, this forum, and many other evolutionist minded folk throughout my life, have always been adamant about pleading their case. Many say it's fact, and has been proven. They are always persistent in letting you know what they believe.

    Wow! I want to live where you live. I can't remember the last time evolution came up in conversation. The only place I ever get to discuss evolution is here. Were you wearing a great big "Down With Evolution" button or something? :D

    Is it necessary to promote evolution?

    I don't know what you mean by promote. If you mean teach it, then yes, it is science, so it is taught in school just like all the other fields of science. Typically, evolution is 2 weeks of the school year in high school biology classes.

    Why is it so critical people believe it?

    It isn't critical at all that you believe it. Don't believe it if you don't want to. If it's against your religious beliefs to accept evolution, then don't accept it. As long as it doesn't cause you to do stupid things like deny your children visits to the doctor because the field of medicine is a co-conspirator of evolution, then more power to you!

    The reason the creation/evolution debate is so visible is because of creationist attempts to restrict the teaching of evolution while promoting the teaching of the Genesis account of creation in public school science classrooms. If not for these efforts most people would never have heard of creationism.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
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    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5533
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 13 of 135 (319216)
    06-08-2006 5:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by arachnophilia
    06-08-2006 4:07 PM


    what field of math are you in, nwr?

    I'm in functional analysis, at least in theory. In practice I do computer science. But actually that's irrelevant.

    What I was actually referring to are the discussion in AMS Notices and the sessions in math conferences, that deal with the problem of mathematical illiteracy and with finding ways to combat it.

    i'd find it really funny if i actually knew you outside of evc

    Probably not.

    that's right, here in florida, they outlawed the socratic method.

    That's a shame. There seems to be a tendency to abandon common sense, and replace it with rigid rules. I sometimes wonder whether we need a constitutional amendment to require that non-lawyers be given fair representation in the legislative bodies.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-08-2006 4:07 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

      
    Teets_Creationist
    Inactive Member


    Message 14 of 135 (319260)
    06-08-2006 7:53 PM


    Wowzee Everyone!!! It's impossible for me to keep up! I'm not trying to throw you all into one big "lump reply", but I can't make a seperate response for each one of you, because I have work and a pregnant wife. But just so I don't assume anything, I want to see if I have some of your responses correct. Here goes, and remember, I'm not trying to be vague, I understand that this is touching on many seperate posts, so don't think I'm trying to say that each of you think this exactly like so.

    1.It doesn't matter wether or not I believe in evolution. I can go along my everyday life, and you're fine with it. When I die, I'm no worse of than you, other than I didn't believe the "truth".

    2.It is important to promote (teaching or defending could be ways of promoting) evolution, even though it doesn't matter if we believe it or not, because you want the public to be informed of something that really doesn't effect them greatly.

    3.It's important to show people how wrong Creationists are, even though if they want to be a Creationist, then you're fine with it.

    4.If creationists had their way, then much intellegence in the feild of science would be lost, so we have to close them out of it, in order to advance as humans.

    I'm just gathering this from reading your comments. Like I said, I'm not trying to assume. But your comments did lead me to wonder a few things. Would the world around us still function as we know it, if Creationists had their way, and would we stop advancing in the field of science? How dependant is science on evolution? What is it, that we are trying to achieve, that we cannot achieve without evolution?


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    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5533
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 15 of 135 (319267)
    06-08-2006 8:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Teets_Creationist
    06-08-2006 7:53 PM


    1.It doesn't matter wether or not I believe in evolution. I can go along my everyday life, and you're fine with it. When I die, I'm no worse of than you, other than I didn't believe the "truth".

    I think the responses to your OP mostly agreed with that.

    As for your (2), (3), (4) - nobody said that. You are misconstruing what people are saying. Shame on you.


    This message is a reply to:
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